WNS Brought from 2005 European Cave Conference?

[BrianC]

Now, Jack Wallace says they have the smoking gun from France.

We will have to wait and see if there are similar results. So as of right now it seems the only smoking gun is the one that shot someones foot off and has yet to hit the mark.

Evan, I find the European study ironic as it states one scenario that WNS may have arrived there from whom other than the good old USA.

[Evan G]

Now, Jack Wallace says they have the smoking gun from France.

We will have to wait and see if there are similar results. So as of right now it seems the only smoking gun is the one that shot someones foot off and has yet to hit the mark.

Evan, I find the European study ironic as it states one scenario that WNS may have arrived there from whom other than the good old USA.

That is only one of the reasons the study must be independently confirmed which it sounds like the Germans are doing. Unfortunately there is much supposition being thrown around as fact when dealing with this syndrome. People that are currently stating and creating theoretical arguments from original study are doing it without basis of consistent results and very little (if any) direct evidence to support these arguments.

I'm surprised that the German have not released any findings, which I view this in two different ways: Either they are being thorough (which is not uncommon) or there is a problem with the original study. Again it is wait and see scenario.

[PYoungbaer]

I have confirmed with Jack Wallace that he was referring to the 2005 NKCMS meeting in Albany, NY (Yes, indeed, I did attend as one of the representatives of the area cave conservancy, the NCC). I've put Mike Warner, chair of the event in touch with Jack to clarify that 1. no attendees were from Europe (Canada and Australia were the only two countries represented outside the U.S.), and 2. the cave itinerary was a surface, non-caving tour showing off the NCC and NSS properties as examples of cave and karst management. The tour ended in the commercial section of Howe Caverns. This is clearly not the European connection speculated by many.

[hewhocaves]

Please excuse my bluntness but...

this premise is utter bat sh*t. By singling it out to a specific "smoking gun" - that is, group of cavers, it presumes that a single caving trip is sufficient to spread WNS. If we make the reasonable assumption that the cavers transporting it from Europe did not go to some special, secret cave unknown to the rest of the world - that is, that WNS is prevalent in Europe, then we must conclude that any group of cavers could have brought it across.

Essentially, the proponents of this hypothesis are suggesting that these are the first European cavers to come to the United States. This is absolute garbage. Furthermore, by saying it was over a limited period, the assumption is that it was likely one trip which deposited the fungus. Which suggests that it is probably just as likely that Americans visiting Europe brought it back with them.

So, their whole premise rests on the idea that, like Columbus, they were the first people to cross the ocean. I say 'hogwash'. Having caved in the northeast for many years I can say the folllowing are true:

- There are many ties to european cavers and frequent trips back and forth.
- I have a book from 1994 in Russian given to be by some Russian cavers visiting New Jersey.
- one of the NE Grottoes had a Ukranian exchange program in the 1990s.
- the author of the Priest Grotto book is from the northeast. Presumably he did some caving overseas for the book.
- Northern NJ Grotto's motto is 'Cave the World'. In the 1990s they pretty much did just that, caving all over the world.
- In the 1960s, the Gurnees were guests of Norbert Casteret, the very famous French caver and caved in the French Alps. Both before and after they spent a lot of time surveying and doing conservation work in the Albany area.
- in 'The Longest Cave' Alfred Bogli, of Holloch Cave visited Mammoth Cave over an extended period of time, and helped with the surveying.
- Canadian Cavers have close ties to European Cavers and there is much interaction between them. Canadian Cavers also visit the Albany area frequently.

I'm certain there are dozens more examples that only a tiny amount of effort would uncover.

None of these people deconned. They may have washed down their coveralls, but none of them used quaternary ammonium and as we have been told an innumerable number of times, laundry detergent is ineffective. So these people were all walking fungus factories according to the criteria we have been given. If this were true, WNS should have shown up sometime in the 1950s or early 1960s. But it didn't for another 50 years. This is clearly another example of horrible science (and this crisis has had more than its share of horrible science). But it doesn't excuse the professional scientists who ought to know better. After all, in a heartbeat we'd all sue a doctor who diagnosed us with "an imbalance of bodily humors" and prescribed a "good leeching to remove the homunculus inside you."


addendum:
This is not to lay blame on any of these people, should human transmission ultimately be shown to be the primary cause. None of us knew prior to 2005 that deconning gear was even necessary. As an analogy, had the Europeans been benevolent, peaceful ambassadors to the new world- they still would have killed off most of the continent with smallpox, et al.

[PYoungbaer]

I completely agree this premise is faulty. It was the "smoking gun" statement in the news story that caught my attention, and directed pursuit of the root of the statement. If we go way back to 2008, a news story then carried a speculative statement that maybe this came from Europe. Since then, this speculative statement has been repeated in news story after news story to the point that it now has the status of an Urban Legend - and a Perfect Storm. Personally, I am not aware of anyone that has even attempted to investigate whether or not this is true, and so, nature abhoring a vacuum, the legend persists. So, today, when I saw this quote, I wondered if there was actually something new. Guess not. However, perhaps some folks who had been harboring a misconception, based on a faulty assumption about the NCKMS conference, now have the facts about that event. I guess that's progress.

[hewhocaves]

I completely agree this premise is faulty. It was the "smoking gun" statement in the news story that caught my attention, and directed pursuit of the root of the statement. If we go way back to 2008, a news story then carried a speculative statement that maybe this came from Europe. Since then, this speculative statement has been repeated in news story after news story to the point that it now has the status of an Urban Legend - and a Perfect Storm. Personally, I am not aware of anyone that has even attempted to investigate whether or not this is true, and so, nature abhoring a vacuum, the legend persists. So, today, when I saw this quote, I wondered if there was actually something new. Guess not. However, perhaps some folks who had been harboring a misconception, based on a faulty assumption about the NCKMS conference, now have the facts about that event. I guess that's progress.

Peter,

I don't think you did... but on the off chance that you got the impression I was suggesting you were in support of this daft notion, that is not the case. My rant was directed towards the premise and the method. One of the great things I like about science is that when done properly the disagreement is over the solution to the problem, not over the people. Another thing I strive to do is to not have any emotional attachment to a hypothesis. Cause tomorrow someone may blow it out of the water.

People sometimes get the impression that science is this sort of my idea vs your idea (and sometimes egos turn it into that). But, when done correctly, its more like the idea is a pinata and we all get to whack on it with sticks together. Sadly, there is less candy and more ego in this problem. Boo!

[Evan G]

"The same white-nose fungus we identified here was identified in 1998 in a cave in France," Wallace said. "Funny thing is, it doesn't seem to cause bat mortality over there."

I want clarify this urban legend, falsehood, or whatever:

In 1998 ...... no, I repeat no, white-nose fungus was identified from a cave in France ............. unless you can break the laws of physics, maybe Wallace knows of a time machine I don't know about.

1st: If this were true the European science community would have published several papers by now and we would have been years ahead of where we are now on WNS problem but not a single piece paper or report can be found to support this claim.

2nd: Who named Geomyces destructans and did the DNA fingerprinting? Well it was not the Europeans in 1998 that "same white-nose fungus we identified here was identified in 1998 in a cave in France". The answer to the big question! It was the Americans at the University of Wisconsin in 2009:

PDF: Geomyces destructans sp. nov. associated with bat white-nose syndrome [by] A. Gargas1, M.T. Trest2, M. Christensen3 T.J. Volk4 & D.S. Blehert5

Cavechat thread: WNS Fungus Named -- confirmed new species[2009]

So for this statement to be true the newly found species Geomyces destructans which was DNA fingerprinted in 2009 for the first time. All the appropriate data would have to be put in a time machine and sent back in time to the scientists in 1998. Which in doing this would not only identify a new species fungi but also prove Einstein theory of relativity completely wrong thus this person should be nominated for a Nobel prize.

OK, I'm done............have a great day.

[wyandottecaver]

Evan,

his semantics were certainly not correct.

However, the periodic presence of white fungus on bats in Europe WAS noted and even documented. But, without any apparent high mortality it just didn't get much interest. I have zero doubt that had the appearance of WNS in NY not also been accompanied by mass mortality nobody even today would know what WNS was, or even care. We would find some bats with white fluffy noses, make a note in the field notes and maybe get some money 5 years later to look at it...maybe. Being a bat fungus expert just wasn't an attractive field for bright young graduate students until 2006.

[graveleye]

Please excuse my bluntness but...

this premise is utter bat sh*t.

Unfortunately, the ones who have the press in their pocket are the ones who get to shape the "truth". Also unfortunate is that the "truth" that is being blathered about in newspapers and media outlets across the country is based mainly on preconception of the journalist and grandstanding from some of their sources. The sources don't really know the real truth, so they're speculating with authority on the subject, which is in turn taken as gospel by the media, sent out and consumed by the masses and hence a whole new "truth" is born, nurtured and maintained.

Sometimes I think we're so screwed.

[Cheryl Jones]

Sometimes I think we're so screwed.

"Sometimes"??

Cheryl

[Evan G]

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you wyandottecaver........

his semantics were certainly not correct.

Semantics? Wow your being nice. I know I'm being critical and the way I look at criticism is: Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile away and have their shoes.

However, the periodic presence of white fungus on bats in Europe WAS noted and even documented.

I'm not disputing or auguring that but a problem arises that "someone saw" or someone "noted" in a document a white fungus. Heck, I have seen a white fungus growing on a bat here in Wyoming in 2004 the bat had died while hanging upside down and the soft tissue areas sprouted fungus (the rest eventually mummified then someone stole it) and I sent a piece of it to Peter Febb with other samples as apart of the Horsethief Cave Environmental Assessment Project (http://www.well.com/user/peter/htc04.do >>>it is htc 0414 fungus 1 pdy,/white) It came back as penicillin which I was a bit surprised. So if someone saw or noted, it is circumstantial evidence which is basically useless because we don't have anything substantial to tell us what it is.

I have zero doubt that had the appearance of WNS in NY not also been accompanied by mass mortality nobody even today would know what WNS was, or even care. We would find some bats with white fluffy noses, make a note in the field notes and maybe get some money 5 years later to look at it...maybe. Being a bat fungus expert just wasn't an attractive field for bright young graduate students until 2006.

If this, if that, should of, would of .....yep, I know those too. Heck you ask right now what other biologic materials might cause another syndrome, maybe we should do a preemptive strike on the "If this, if that, should of, would of". ..... Sounds absurd doesn't it.....