The Pesticide Matrix

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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby Phil Winkler » Apr 13, 2010 8:55 am

I'm not saying anything about the purpose of the study and neither does the study for that matter.

The study was to determine what and how the bats died. Dead bats showed the systemic infection, but stated one interpretation was the granulocytosis could be indicative of an early infection/inflammation. WBCs increase at infected sites within the body and attempt to neutralize the invading organism. I'm not certain I would classify that as an immune response since that usually refers to antibodies created by our lymphatic system.

Being infected by the fungus is debillating for the bat. It's body must work overtime trying to fight the infection and they simply get worn out and die in the fight.
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby peter febb » Apr 14, 2010 8:23 am

circles = Area A: Williams Complex, 2004-5
squares = Area B: Barton Hill area near the VT border 2001-2
diamonds = Area C: Glen Park 2005
triangles = Area D: Jamesville 2006
X = areas of documented high bat fatality

Image Lindane http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC32949

Image Bensulide http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/bensulid.htm

Image Dithiocarbamate http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_Chemicals.jsp?

Image Methyl Parathion
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/haloxyfop-methylparathion/methyl-parathion-ext.html

Image Parathion

Image Bacillus thuringiensis http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pesticide/btkfacts.shtml

Image Methyl Bromide http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC32864

Image Bis-Carbamate http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Search_Chemicals.jsp

Image Pendimethalin http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33194

Image Atrazine herbicide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrazine

Image
Endosulfan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endosulfan
EPA is taking action to end all uses of endosulfan in the United States. EPA has concluded that endosulfan poses unacceptable risks to agricultural workers and wildlife, and can persist in the environment.http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/endosulfan/endosulfan-cancl-fs.html


Image Chlorpyrifos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpyrifos


Image Diflubenzuron http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC34807




Image Benomyl breakdown products http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC32862
Last edited by peter febb on May 28, 2011 7:33 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby karenofcharlotte » May 9, 2010 12:56 am

First, let me apologize if this has already been addressed in the forum.

I have read a great deal about how Btk only effects larva. I don't believe it because of studies that have found Btk lingers much longer than the promoters of its use say.

To my question. If the bacteria in Btk is actived only by enzymes in the stomachs of insects in the larva stage and essentially starves the larva, what happens to a bird or bat that eats the larva after the bacteria has been activated? The condition of bats with WNS that have died from starvation sounds like the larva.
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby peter febb » May 10, 2010 12:42 pm

If the bacteria in Btk is actived only by enzymes in the stomachs of insects in the larva stage and essentially starves the larva, what happens to a bird or bat that eats the larva after the bacteria has been activated?
You probably know that bats favor moths, and because they prefer feeding in-flight, would probably have some difficulty with the larvae. I checked through the literature for any clues and found that Sapsuckers were the only birds that ate the Gypsy Moth caterpillars. I found nothing connecting them with Btk problems, but you might do some further checking as I may have missed something.

The latest chart for BTk is here: http://www.well.com/~peter/btksa11.html Two scores are examined in the examples below. Note that area C has been divided into two separate areas for better clarity.
Area A is the Williams Complex, 2004-5
Area B: Is the Barton Hill area near the VT border 2001-2
Area C is Glen Park 2005
and area D is Jamesville 2006
The fatality matrix on the far right has been shown before, and is now routinely included.

Image 2000 Bacillus thuringiensis Kurstaki SA-11 showing strong overlap (score:48.3993) with bat foraging area in Glen Park region. This is a solid hit on the prime area surrounding the hibernaculum. No fatality counts are recorded in my database, WNS is present in early reports. If Btk has any effects on bats, then this Hibernaculum should have shown different lab results from any of the others. Since the application occurred in 2000, 5 years passed before WNS appeared there.

Image 2004 Bacillus thuringiensis Kurstaki SA-11 showing poor correlation with a moderate score of 33.5165. Actual matrix of Btk is shown in red and located in Long Island, a considerable distance from the Williams Complex foraging extents (area A) which reaches well into Connecticut.
This is one case where a high score can be misleading.

The one critical location Howes Cave cannot be included here as no emergence data is available.

So far, I have difficulty giving BtK a bad rap as a problem for bats. Most of the scores are low; I feel that scores below 30 can safely be ignored in most cases.

If you have a favorite toxin that you feel should be investigated, this analysis is a good first step. Feel free to PM me with your recommendation.
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby wyandottecaver » May 10, 2010 7:36 pm

IMHO pursuing a pesticides/WNS link is another case of windmills and don quixote.

The soil study showed:
1) WNS is always found in infected caves
2) WNS is never found in unaffected caves
3) subseqent to the soil study previous "clean" caves have become infected as WNS spread

thus WNS was not an existing background pathogen that suddenly sprang-up in bats due to any debiliting effect by pesticides. If pesticides were responsible for a general weakening of bats overall that allowed WNS to get a foothold in America we would have seen other opportunistic pathogens in bats as well. If pesticides had contaminated or eliminated the food sources we would see broad regional declines, not a step by step progression of disease across the landscape. I highly doubt we could show any pesticide that was "correlated" to all WNS sites. Thus, unless we can explain a pesticide that magically evolved a fungus identical down to the DNA level to the European strain somewhere in NY or magically transported it here from Europe, or somehow weakened bats ONLY to WNS, then the role of pesticides in WNS is clear......zero.
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby karenofcharlotte » May 10, 2010 8:32 pm

If not Btk or pesticide related directly, have studies been done on mutations or resistance to btk? Sorry, i hate btk, i was well in the morning, the city sprayed and by the end of the day I had a severe sinus infection plus the main neighborhoods complaining about cankerworms were the ones that did not want flocks of birds in their yards. I think there's a lesson there. I encourage birds, have many trees and have never had an investation in a tree or plant. Regular birds in your yard will always keep migrating flocks at bay. We have bats in the warmer months.

Another thought, with all the recent quake and volcanic activity, is something going on deep down that is bringing this fungus up? At some point these caves have to be connected.

One last thought, I have noticed a number of articles of new bat species being discovered. Could this simply be a case of out with the old and in with the new?
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby karenofcharlotte » May 14, 2010 2:44 pm

The most I can say with confidence is that we don't know what happens when we play around with nature. Possibly our elimination of insects is being met by mother nature with the elimination of creatures dependant on those insects. At what point does that chain of progression stop?


I am still curious on mutation of Btk. Please read all of http://www.nosprayzone.org/btk_151.html (151 reasons not to spray) This caught my eye.

44) B.t. due to its mutagenic potential may be hazardous to humans and other mammals. Chromosomes were found to be the primary target and in some cases the DNA system became inhibited. B.t. has an action which breaks the cell membrane and research continues on its possible use in studies on cancer cells. Thus, it has the potential to damage all cells. The authors end the study with the following warning: "The data conclusively indicate the need for caution against large scale use of microbial insecticides in crop fields." Cytogenetic Hazards from Agricultural Chemicals C.B.S.R. Sharma et al, Mutation Research #46
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby peter febb » May 16, 2011 8:42 am

....children exposed in the womb to high levels of a class of pesticides known as organophosphates had lower average intelligence than other children by the time they reached age 7.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/produce-industry-presses-usda-on-pesticide-report/2011/05/05/AFxzgQ4G_story.html?hpid=z3

The use of pesticides in bat foraging areas may have detrimental effects on bats, and may be one of many "insults" to the health of our bat population.
The above study shows that humans are at risk from organophosphates. It certainly implies that mammals in general are at risk, pre-birth for these effects, and we can suspect that bats exposed to these agents should display some of these effects as well.

Pesticides have been all but banned in Europe...some bats there have G.d. but with no documented fatalities.
Beginning on the same year WNS was first discovered, pesticide use data for New York state has not been published as required by law*. I have learned that the contract that Cornell University had with NY state DEC has been canceled due to funding issues. New York Department of Environmental Conservation budget is also tight, and has been cited as one reason the data has not yet been published.




*The Pesticide Reporting Law (PRL) (Environmental Conservation Law Article 33, Title 12) was enacted on July 8, 1996. The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (NYSDEC) is responsible for implementing the data collection portion of this law.
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby peter febb » Jun 28, 2011 1:54 pm

In just a few years, over one million bats in the northeastern United States have died from diseases caused by pesticide exposure. More than 1,800 species of sea creatures face extinction from exposure and many researchers suspect that colony collapse disorder (CCD) among bees is being caused by pesticides as well.

Read it all here:
http://www.naturalnews.com/027971_pesticides_bees.html
Behind Mass Die-Offs,
Pesticides Lurk as Culprit

Full story:
http://e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2228
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby PYoungbaer » Jun 28, 2011 2:59 pm

Peter,

These are opinion pieces, and not grounded in scientific evidence as far as the bats are concerned. The claim by the first author that over a million bats have died due to pesticides is not supported by the evidence - in fact, it's contradicted by the evidence.
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby John Lovaas » Jun 28, 2011 5:37 pm

Peter Y.-

Ah! I just had a lively discussion with a WIDNR employee(via the Wisconsin Speleological Society Yahoo group) on the content of the yale.edu pseudoscience piece just a week ago. Don't know why it is coming up on people's radar now- apparently, folks are perceiving it as fact- which it is not.

I must be a Midwest bumpkin, but I would expect more of something originating at a yale.edu address.

What utterly gagged me was that in my discussion- and in the article- a correlation was drawn between Colony Collapse Disorder(CCD) and WNS, as I was told they they "both started in the same year".

Nothing could be further from the truth. The term Colony Collapse Disorder was first used at the same time that WNS was first observed in the US. CCD had been occurring for some time prior to that- one useful scientific paper on the hictory of CCD can be found here:

http://ento.psu.edu/directory/duv2/unde ... p_2007.pdf

Are we willing to accept that WNS existed prior to an author coining the term "White Nose Syndrome"? Of course. Sadly, there are people who are unable to do so for CCD.

My own personal experience with CCD is with colony collapses due to what would be called CCD- but these occurred in the 1990s in northern Illinois. The colony collapses meet every definition of CCD- but no one had coined the term yet.

Sigh.
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby wyandottecaver » Jun 28, 2011 6:27 pm

I laugh every time I see this thread come back up. It has no resemblence to science but it's sure entertaining. :rofl:


The epidemiology and spread of WNS is in fact a NEGATIVE Corrolation to Pesticide use. I have no doubt that pesticides impact bats and their foods. I also have no doubt that they are no more a factor in WNS than wind turbines and people driving cars at night.
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby peter febb » Jul 1, 2011 5:54 pm

In the second link, Sonia Shah writes:
Bats are especially vulnerable to chemical pollution. They’re small — the little brown bat weighs just 8 grams — and can live for up to three decades. “That’s lots of time to accumulate pesticides and contaminants,” points out Boston University bat researcher and Ph.D. candidate Marianne Moore, who is studying whether environmental contaminants suppress bats’ immune function. “We know they are exposed to and accumulate organochlorines, mercury, arsenic, lead, dioxins,” she says, “but we don’t understand the effects.”

I believe Sonia based her opinion on the work cited.
You will find Marianne doing "pseudoscience" at:http://www.bu.edu/cecb/bats/
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby John Lovaas » Jul 1, 2011 6:26 pm

No, Mr. Febbroriello-

Sonia drew conclusions and formed a blindly speculative and unscientific opinion (masquerading as science) based on causally unconnected vertebrate and invertebrate research.

And linking to a researcher's website doesn't change the quality or nature of Sonia's opinion piece. The fact that someone communicates with scientists adds NO validity to any opinion they may form about any subject, absent facts and evidence.

You fail to note that Sonia drew conclusions, and formed an opinion, all while this statement from Ms. Moore was floating in front of her-

“but we don’t understand the effects.”
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Re: The Pesticide Matrix

Postby peter febb » Jul 26, 2013 8:48 am

Crop Pollination Exposes Honey Bees to Pesticides Which Alters Their Susceptibility to the Gut Pathogen Nosema ceranae
Jeffery S. Pettis, Elinor M. Lichtenberg, Michael Andree, Jennie Stitzinger, Robyn Rose, Dennis vanEngelsdorp
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0070182#authcontrib

This interesting study involving honeybee colony collapse due to pesticide exposure suggests to me that a similar study should be done on bats.
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