Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

[wyandottecaver]

well sometimes, some individuals do survive. Sometimes NONE do. As I said earlier, the problem with resistance (if it exists) is that you need ENOUGH individuals to survive to prevent inbreeding and genetic defects. After millions of dead and no evidence of resistance yet, I'd say finding resistance AND finding enough survivors is not good.

My cruise missle comment wasn't a slip. Your concerned about the genetic pool of some mythical bats with resistance. I'm concerned about the genetic pool of all the normal bats we already know DO exist.

I said that "normal" caving practices were probably not harmful. Not all disturbance.
The USFWS will be glad to know Gray Bats are common. Currently they are listed as Endangered.

At least you gave me a good laugh about being ignorant of the concepts pertaining to "survival of the fittest"(SOF) (I have a MS in Wildlife Biology) First, SOF is based on individuals. But long term survival is based on populations. In order for SOF to even matter, you have to have time...a lot of time. Time for those few individuals and several generations of their offspring to get their "better" genes into enough of the population to keep it viable. Time is something WNS isn't giving us.

[eyecave]

Erm, well first of all show me bats in Europe that have WNS and survive. Sure, g.d. that's all around. g.d =/= WNS

And anyway, the way you choose your words and the way you refuse to write in any semblance of proper English and then get upset at us when we can't understand what you're saying...yeah. There is a word for what you're doing. Trolling.

/me labels eyecave a troll, foes him, and moves on with her life

Googgle (WNS europe), read and learn what you are debating.

[eyecave]

well sometimes, some individuals do survive. Sometimes NONE do. As I said earlier, the problem with resistance (if it exists) is that you need ENOUGH individuals to survive to prevent inbreeding and genetic defects. After millions of dead and no evidence of resistance yet, I'd say finding resistance AND finding enough survivors is not good.

My cruise missle comment wasn't a slip. Your concerned about the genetic pool of some mythical bats with resistance. I'm concerned about the genetic pool of all the normal bats we already know DO exist.

I said that "normal" caving practices were probably not harmful. Not all disturbance.
The USFWS will be glad to know Gray Bats are common. Currently they are listed as Endangered.

At least you gave me a good laugh about being ignorant of the concepts pertaining to "survival of the fittest"(SOF) (I have a MS in Wildlife Biology) First, SOF is based on individuals. But long term survival is based on populations. In order for SOF to even matter, you have to have time...a lot of time. Time for those few individuals and several generations of their offspring to get their "better" genes into enough of the population to keep it viable. Time is something WNS isn't giving us.

goggle evolution.........read the first paragraph over and over........then answer this question......how do you think a population of animals subjected to a devastating biological illness have survived in the past?....gray bats are rare for a reason....sarcasm is lost on.......

i was the one saying ALL DISTURBANCE HIBERNATIon is bad..............i certainly did not mean to imply you have the opposite viewpoint of that.........you already know how much disturbance should be tolerated by bats because you have disturbed......excuse me, observed bats being disturbed during winter regularly......you also noted a few dead bats.......

survival of the fittest is a term that is related to a number of traits and factors....
....where wns is involved height, weight, strength and sex all don't matter.......what matters is a bats reaction to the growth of the fungus and the damage it causes...
..how much it causes or whether or not there is no damage and the fungus growth is slowed by the bats GENETIC ABILITY to do that....
...that is what i am referring to....
....survival of the fittest ain't all about the strongest and most aggressive, that is a rather narrow view of such a complex subject i am sure you have been exposed to my next point in your masters educational experiences...

...........the survival of all species of creatures also has a whole lot to do with the IMMUNE SYSTEM response to various stresses......a bats skin immune response, dermal and epidermal....any other tissue would also potentially be the point of failure where the biological damage would become too great and early abnormal arousal and starvation would be the result.......a bats ability to remain in deep hibernation in spite of the damage would slow fungi growth and certainly cause a lower energy loss..thats another IMMUNE SYSTEM RESPONSE that vary's between bats........things like that are a bunch more important...

...AND (twice) YOU ACTUALLY ADVOCATE DESTROYING THOSE INDIVIDUAL BATS and yet in the same breath profess adequate documents that indicate training in a subject we are debating.....however understanding what was being said in class.......realizing what it really means....and remembering it in an emotional time like this.......well.....i rest whatever....the value of a variable genetic system is completely lost on you and your solution indicates that clearly.....will some of you guys with degrees in batology help me with this simple point here.....

[Pippin]

Eyecave, I'm so glad you're trying to educate one of the few people on this list who has an actual master's degree in wildlife biology about evolution and natural selection. Wyandottecaver was probably asleep during his entire graduate school experience and I'm sure he's ever so grateful for your suggestion that he read about evolution.

And please learn something about bat species you're griping about before berating us about them. Gray bats are rare not because of disease. They're rare because they are very easily disturbed, incredibly picky about caves for both summer and winter roosts, and their habitat has been systematically destroyed over the past couple of centuries. Almost every single cave where grays roost is now protected and closed, so disturbing a colony of grays, even before WNS became an issue, is simply unlikely. Pips on the other hand, which are very common in caves near me, are extremely difficult to rouse. I've been on bat inventory trips with a variety of biologists over the years, and you can pluck a pip off the wall, spread out its wings, fool around with its fur, stand around shining your lights on it for several minutes, then stick it back on the wall without it even waking up. Pips have done very well over the years because unlike grays, they are very hard to disturb and are not picky about their roosts. If pips get WNS and die this winter, it won't be because cavers are waking them up. They'll die because WNS is waking them up.

[BrianC]

Talking about evolution or creationism, doesn't answer the question of this thread. When this thread was started, remarks made by some folks gave me the impression that any caver that didn't think cavers spread WNS, was ignorant. I would not have posted this thread unless I felt that I knew the answer. It appears that the vast majority here believe factually that cavers don't spread White Nose Syndrome. It appears that even the Wisconsin DNR has made adjustments in their policy, in light of facts. We won't have the funding to study WNS from government much longer, why don't (if they care about bats) government officials stop the wrong policies of cave closures?. Allow cavers who care, see that caves will stay open so they will want to help secure funds for continued studies. If caves are closed, why should anyone care about them?

[eyecave]

Eyecave, I'm so glad you're trying to educate one of the few people on this list who has an actual master's degree in wildlife biology about evolution and natural selection. Wyandottecaver was probably asleep during his entire graduate school experience and I'm sure he's ever so grateful for your suggestion that he read about evolution.

And please learn something about bat species you're griping about before berating us about them. Gray bats are rare not because of disease. They're rare because they are very easily disturbed, incredibly picky about caves for both summer and winter roosts, and their habitat has been systematically destroyed over the past couple of centuries. Almost every single cave where grays roost is now protected and closed, so disturbing a colony of grays, even before WNS became an issue, is simply unlikely. Pips on the other hand, which are very common in caves near me, are extremely difficult to rouse. I've been on bat inventory trips with a variety of biologists over the years, and you can pluck a pip off the wall, spread out its wings, fool around with its fur, stand around shining your lights on it for several minutes, then stick it back on the wall without it even waking up. Pips have done very well over the years because unlike grays, they are very hard to disturb and are not picky about their roosts. If pips get WNS and die this winter, it won't be because cavers are waking them up. They'll die because WNS is waking them up.

i am so glad you noted that whyandotte must have been asleep during the majority of his classes on genetics, survival of the fittest and evolution.......it is refreshing to find a fellow academian who may perhaps see survival of the fittest as not just the one with the broadest shoulders..and that it might have more to do with the response of that particular bats immune system response........yeah, thanks for seeing that sir......boy, i feel justified because it is obvious that you saw that point....thanks............

and, i hate to debate your main point in disputing my arguments.......but,................ i never said why grays were rare......i certainly did not say it was due to wns disease as you heavily imply.........

....i simply was pointing out that because grays are grays those grays who contracted wns, would, during their first exposure be extremely vulnerable because of their sensitivity to disturbances.....

...would you be so radical as to ALSO agree with that simple point as it applies to sickened species of bats of any type that are having their first encounter with wns and are trying to survive that first winter.......i cannot get the caving community to acknowledge this?....

cavers voluntarily limiting caving during cold months.... ...where would that lead?..... ...lets not even admit that he actually said that.... ....

...i am also glad you recognize the fungi caused disturbances during hibernation as significant..... .

i am so glad that pips are sooooo resistant to disturbances....during hibernation a disturbance is considered to be something as simple as increased heart rate and breathing frequency.......any of the actions you were doing would have lessened the reserves of energy that particular bat had that was enabling his or her survival of hibernation............do you agree with that point or disagree....

...i am not asking can they do it, but does it cause an energy drain.....another side question.....can hibernation be a fatal event for the creature hibernating?....what causes that?..........

..smf please tell me what does any of this have to do with cavers voluntarily limiting their disturbances of alllllllll bats during allllllll months of hibernation during this ecological disaster?... ....i will bet you not alll grays live in scci or nss managed bat caves.... .

let the bats sleep.... ....

give sleeping bats a chance... ..

what about, "remove the human influence, stop caving during bat hibernation".....

or...help sick bats survive, stop hibernation caving

let nature be..restrict fall and winter underground trips...

best so far.....stop hibernation caving, or no hibernation caving... ........

this is too easy......mc, vmc, hny...vhny...... ......

[eyecave]

Talking about evolution or creationism, doesn't answer the question of this thread. When this thread was started, remarks made by some folks gave me the impression that any caver that didn't think cavers spread WNS, was ignorant. I would not have posted this thread unless I felt that I knew the answer. It appears that the vast majority here believe factually that cavers don't spread White Nose Syndrome. It appears that even the Wisconsin DNR has made adjustments in their policy, in light of facts. We won't have the funding to study WNS from government much longer, why don't (if they care about bats) government officials stop the wrong policies of cave closures?. Allow cavers who care, see that caves will stay open so they will want to help secure funds for continued studies. If caves are closed, why should anyone care about them?

i am not discussing the differences, merits, or proofs of evolution or creationism.........many times in history a large number of animals have been reduced to a very small number due to simple resistance to diseases.......(the american indians are a recent example of humans subjected to genetic disaster...the inuit were also victums of this as were their sled dogs........

whether you believe in creationism or evolution to explain the survival of any species of anything you gotta admit that the ones producing new member are old ones who didn't die from whatever ecological disaster is occuring.......you also gotta admit that some things can be predicted by genetic testing......sorry, truth hurts............

[eyecave]

Talking about evolution or creationism, doesn't answer the question of this thread. When this thread was started, remarks made by some folks gave me the impression that any caver that didn't think cavers spread WNS, was ignorant. I would not have posted this thread unless I felt that I knew the answer. It appears that the vast majority here believe factually that cavers don't spread White Nose Syndrome. It appears that even the Wisconsin DNR has made adjustments in their policy, in light of facts. We won't have the funding to study WNS from government much longer, why don't (if they care about bats) government officials stop the wrong policies of cave closures?. Allow cavers who care, see that caves will stay open so they will want to help secure funds for continued studies. If caves are closed, why should anyone care about them?

i am not discussing the differences, merits, or proofs of evolution or creationism.........many times in history a large number of animals have been reduced to a very small number due to simple resistance to diseases.......(the american indians are a recent example of humans subjected to genetic disaster...the inuit were also victums of this as were their sled dogs........

and i am very tired of cavers implying and stating that if cavers where stopped from caving that all interest in the underground flora and fauna would somehow cease.........this is obviously doublespeak...cavers could continue to express concern and actions.........

.......to say that your continued undergound caving is somehow magically able to ensure the survival of bats, my point is the opposite......i feel that any hibernation disturbance during this period of time is dangerous for the bats.............i care enough about my personal influence on cave fauna to restrict all caving during hibernatinng months in all caves...why won't you agree, why do you insist on no or few restrictions?...

whether you believe in creationism or evolution to explain the survival of any species of anything you gotta admit that the ones producing new member are old ones who didn't die from whatever ecological disaster is occuring or has occurred in the past.......you also gotta admit that some things can be predicted by genetic testing......sorry, truth hurts............if genetic testing is real, then genetics are real sir...

...any exortation to kill or cull surviving bats in wns areas to prevent spread should be ignored....these survivors are the genetically gifted that can survive wns infestation and who should be protected and nurtured by us, the humans who go caving.....yes, we should not go underground anywhere underground during hibernation tymes.......sorry..............

.

[tncaver]

eyecave,
Winter caving in hibernacula caves is generally considered tabu by most real cavers. However there are thousands of caves that have no bats. There are two other factors that also help to reduce disturbance of bats in winter. One is bad weather (which keeps some cavers indoors) and hunting preserves (which do not allow caving during deer and turkey seasons which coincide with hibernation in most cases). Of course there are local yocals that don't have a clue about bats or caving. Those are the people you might want to be concerned about. Good luck figuring out how to contact them all with your good words.

[eyecave]

eyecave,
Winter caving in hibernacula caves is generally considered tabu by most real cavers. However there are thousands of caves that have no bats. There are two other factors that also help to reduce disturbance of bats in winter. One is bad weather (which keeps some cavers indoors) and hunting preserves (which do not allow caving during deer and turkey seasons which coincide with hibernation in most cases). Of course there are local yocals that don't have a clue about bats or caving. Those are the people you might want to be concerned about. Good luck figuring out how to contact them all with your good words.

what about caves that only have a few bats in them.... .....for some reason i can seem to get no one to understand that that is my point..........sure, staying out of hiberacula caves...thats a no brainer.......what about caves with only a few bats?......for that matter, what about a cave with only one hibernating bat...that happens to be genetically able to survive WNS....the percentages of bats capable of surviving make each individual very valuable.....can't anyone grasp this or is everyone too stupid to understand this?... ....i am starting to wonder......

[NZcaver]

Grasping at straws with long shots and what-ifs is not good science. Nor should it be used as an excuse for blanket policy decisions.

[Mudduck]

for some reason i can seem to get no one to understand that that is my point

Speaking with all honestly and of course to intentionally People would understand you better if you changed your posting style.

What I get from your post is that if a hibernacula matters................why doesn't one bat.?! What your postulating is certainly a possibility(with respect to that "one" bat having genetic immunity) however the truth of the matter is i would think most cavers believe that the possibilty of this is so remote that its importance does not outweigh the scientific or recreational aspect of continued caving. As has been stated WNS will continue until its done with or without our help. We may speed it up or slow it down but the outcome will be the same, whatever that (outcome) winds up being.

[wyandottecaver]

more to the point, since I didn't learn about Survival of the Fittest, and WNS in Europe through google, I assure you that 1 resistant bat (or even 1000 individuals spread out across the country) DOESNT MATTER. Those bats have to get their genes into a "viable population". With an average of 1 young per year, and WNS killing the bulk of a colony in 2 years, a resistant bat might get 2 young birthed before its colony mates die. Those young may or may not be resistant depending on genetics. If you had 100 resistant bats all in one place...you might have a shot...a bad one. Since we have yet to see any resistant bats at all, then whether your 1 resistant bat (or a hundred, or even a thousand seperated from each other) dies from a caver disturbing him, or a hawk eating him, or lives to old age, certainly matters to that one bat. It doesnt matter at all to the population and certainly not to the species.

[BrianC]

eyecave, I have to say, At least your views have changed from a complete caving ban for one lifetime to, a caving ban during hibernation. For the most part cavers do this anyway, so you are coming along and listening, this is impressive!

[Pippin]

We all need to just stop feeding the troll and move on to other topics.