Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrom?

Postby BrianC » Oct 5, 2010 8:34 am

:argue: :boxing: :down: :doh: :big grin:
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrom?

Postby NZcaver » Oct 5, 2010 10:30 am

White Nose Syndrom?? :question:
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Oct 5, 2010 10:54 am

NZcaver wrote:White Nose Syndrom?? :question:

Thanks NZ Syndrome
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Cavernuke » Oct 5, 2010 9:21 pm

I think I've got it figured out...

"When a tree that falls and nobody is around, does it make a noise?"

Similarly, Cavers are "spreading" WNS by noticing that the bats are dying. If cavers are not allowed into caves, nobody sees dead bats and that means that there is no WNS. Ergo, close all the caves and prosecute any cavers discovered to be caving.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby rlboyce » Oct 6, 2010 6:53 am

Cavernuke wrote:I think I've got it figured out...

"When a tree that falls and nobody is around, does it make a noise?"

Similarly, Cavers are "spreading" WNS by noticing that the bats are dying. If cavers are not allowed into caves, nobody sees dead bats and that means that there is no WNS. Ergo, close all the caves and prosecute any cavers discovered to be caving.


Holy Moses, I think you may be onto something!

I don't normally subscribe to conspiracy-esque theories, but considering the government's rash closures with little or no data to support it, this seems like the best explanation so far. I wish I could say I was being sarcastic or joking, but I'm not.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby self-deleted_user » Oct 6, 2010 10:04 am

Oh that is awesome. I must agree, that seems to be what is going on. :doh:
Self-deleted due to large troll population on the forum, and absence of moderation.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby tncaver » Oct 6, 2010 10:09 am

Cavernuke wrote:I think I've got it figured out...

If cavers are not allowed into caves, nobody sees dead bats and that means that there is no WNS. Ergo, close all the caves and prosecute any cavers discovered to be caving.


#1. There are already gated caves and mines where no cavers entered yet WNS occurred and bats died.
#2. There are THOUSANDS of caves that have no bats and therefore there is NO LOGICAL REASON for closing them.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 4, 2010 12:07 am

the following is a private communication concerning this subject which covers cavers role in wns.......

Subject: re: wns...........
>>
>>dear moses.....
>>
>>regarding your email to ishmael....
>>
>>you say none of my points are valid....yet, your own statements support them?!.....this is weird:
>>
>>you mention an experiment where a caver transported 16Gd spores from a mine to a collection site ......so, that means that, a caver going thru a mine with bats having wns and spores millions of them coating the walls of the mine.....we see that it has already been an empirically established fact by the first controlled experiment!....established beyond a doubt that a caver using say his usual clothing or boots or other equipment, he could transport spores out of an underground area.......now assuming that the caver did no decon or shoddy decon could these spores be then transported back underground at another location by that same caver using his caving gear?..........do we need peer reviewed studies here?..how many reviews over how many critical early years of this genetic disaster do we have to have before simple logic is proven........i submit instead that it is most important that understand the role of the caver in this genetic disaster's immediate future could have a major role in its eventual outcome......
>>
>>it is a moot point at present where the genetically identical strains of european wns (which the bats are immune to) and that found in north america now came from transportation thru a transportation vehicle or human touch .....either mechanism is possible....and do not rule out deliberate introduction sir...war is hell....
>>
>>i made a point in our discussion that the inside passages of any mine or cave is literally coated with millions of spores of wns....and afterwards referred to the walls coated with wns...........and that cavers contacting the walls of the cave would pick up a helluva lotta spores.....you seemed to think that my reference of wns coating the caves walls and not saying spores is somehow significant to our discussion.........so, i guess you are acknowledging that these spores do indeed exist as i described them....but, my choice of aliteration escapes you.
>>
>>i have been to every tag and sera for the last years of wns existence and i see very few cavers deconning..has any deconsupportergroup done a single unobserved observation of cavers returning from a cave trip and those deconning?...........only one careless deconner....just one spreads it......humans are too selfish, which results in irresponsible behavior, to decon as they should.......sorry sir.......do a study......
>>
>>...i see you are making a point about a study being done to determine if cave researchers and phd types disturb the bat hibernaculum in the name of important research......this type of pseudo-intellectual rationalization always amazes me...simple concept here,...if i disturb the bats by quietly slipping thru solo......then i submit that so do all cavers, i propose that whether or not doctor, masters, or phd follows your name...you still disturb sleeping bats if you enter their bedrooms in the tradition way....studies and situations could be devised that eliminated human influence but....should bats be left alone in their sleeps over the next few years when they are in the cave and researchers want to enter their bedroom?......read on if you disagree with this or don't understand what i am getting at...
>>
>>consider this possibility.....if wns invades a population of bats it will kill some and not kill others....these, usually only a tiny percentage of genetic survivors have a genetic switch that allows them survival.....i submit that....the ones that have wns that they are genetically prepared to survive it might be in a situation, upon their first exposure to wns, where they are weakened...(is this more logical than possible?)......should anything be done by anyone involved to disturb these genetic survivors during this first hibernation after exposure to wns fungus.........hell no sir....it is obvious that no disturbance of any sort in any cave or mine or batty area within the north american continent should be tolerated sir.....all caving should cease........can't you see that if sickened north american bats, which will end up surviving european wns, are genetically too value to disturb?...and not just those in major mines or caves.......no...if only 10 bats of a particular species in jackson county survive wns, they are all important, too important for us to harm..........all caving should be voluntarily suspended.........is not nature a better doctor here than the humans?.......stop caving sir....do something else for awhile......
>>
>>access to any and every cave is the extreme view of some cavers,......access to any and most caves the view of the majority, and some few caves and not the rest..a view shared by people like me.......i did not mean to portray you as the representative of radical extremist and thereby elicit potential damnation of your soul to hell.....however......i have noted that access to caves is the central issue with people, like the ones that you both represent and that listen to what you say.........
>>
>>....wns will spread, with or without human influence it will spread from here to that cave at the very tip of south america.....and as far north as bats exist......it or some genetic variation of it exists on the entire continent of europe, ly africa and as far east as the pacific.....mebbee not australia....part of my bringing up cave access as an issue is that i want to educate people in this debate about the role of humans here......humans should step aside and allow nature to spread the fungus and allow the survival of the few genetically "gifted" the best chance of survival by not disturbing them during hibernation and discontinuing all caving activity during any month of hibernation........secondly the natural spreading of wns should not skip large areas of the continent......and a single dirty infected caver going from tag to mexico or south america will lessen the odds of a genetically resistant strain of bats developing.......
>>
>>oh....to get a little ahead of everyone, i know the solution....the solution to wns bat destruction.....if bat populations here reach zero...........import european bats........i realize that you are probably apoplectic at this point.....however, it is the logical solution..........
>>-----O
>>>
>>>i always delete the rest of the crap involved with hitting reply........wonder why others aren't doing that?
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 4, 2010 7:46 am

More than four years since WNS has arrived in New York.Bats have proven that they easily spread WNS by simple migratory habits (this is proven scientifically). To this date not one scientific evidential speck can show that cavers moving spores have caused a development into WNS, not one, not anywhere. bats, and their migratory habits,are very well understood. The long shot bat, way out there, explained simply by the CDC.The Bat scientists likely carried an infected bat unintentionally in their vehicle or equipment. Cavers have been in between and everywhere, yet not one single speck of evidence can show the caver transmission theory, not one. So more than four years into this, and nothing more than speculation, should we therefore continue to ban caving? If so, how long? What more can be learned from cavers staying out of caves? Do you not believe that uninformed spelunkers have continued to splunk, and engage in illegal spelunking?. Yes , many cavers have not observed the years old ban on caving, securing much sporadic cave clingons from many caves, and moving this cave muck many miles, even states, to other areas, where it will merge into the biological environment and potentially grow into the next cure for cancer. It is what it is! Answers are what they are!

The original question from this thread has, I believe, been answered.

PS: You believe cavers spread White Nose Syndrome, I don't! Can we agree to disagree?

:cave softly:
Last edited by BrianC on Dec 4, 2010 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby tncaver » Dec 4, 2010 9:20 am

The state of TN just requested a change of status for the last several caves that had been listed as confirmed for WNS. The status has been changed
back to "likely". The reason is because the bats that were found with a white fungus showed no signs of the disease. Only the two caves in East
Tennessee that are near a confirmed Virginia hibernacula remain on the confirmed list. The bat in Dunbar cave was a loner of a different species.
It seemed to have arrived from far off. Interestingly there had been a lot of high winds preceding it's arrival. There had been caver/science students
in the cave off and on, yet there is still no GD. The lone WNS bat was removed. Maybe it was removed in time to prevent spreading the disease.
It will be interesting to see if Dunbar's status as well as the other caves will be returned to confirmed after this winter. It will also be interesting to
learn if more infected bats of an uncommon species arrived in the cave during this winter. Might depend on how windy this winter is, you think?

There are thousands of caves in TAG that have been continuously visited by cavers since way before and after 2006 and they still have no WNS. Gee how
can that be, if cavers spread the disease? Well, maybe it's because cavers don't spread the disease. The infected bats from up North just haven't
migrated that far South yet. And maybe if we are all lucky, the disease may not be able to develop as far South as TAG. Probably wishful thinking,
but I for one are still hopeful. :cavingrocks:
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 5, 2010 10:19 pm

i appreciate that the idea that cavers spreading wns is a threatening thing to the caving community......could someone please inform bat scientist and phd types that they are dangerous to bats also...but thats another forum.....

why do we even bother deconning at all?.......better.......why is it even recommended that we decon?.......

answer: scientist who understand mycology see that the spreading of spores by cavers is a real possibility....consider the facts...spores are tough, if they can survive outer space...they can survive in the mud on your boots for a very long time...........millions and millions of them are floating in the cave and lying on the ground and walls.........they cannnot be avoided by even the most careful cavers going into a cave with wns among its bats........

can any of the people who stick to migratory pathways arguments understand that cavers probably cave within distances involving bat migratory routes and to say they are involved in wns is not saying they are a major contributor....it only makes sense, at least to mycologist....once again, why is decon reccommended in the first place............

another point.....wns spread might have never been noticed because of the type of cave bat populations in caves cavers visit.........a careless deconner spreading wns in a florida cave might cause an infection in one member of the population of a bat cave that only has 17 bats total in the whole cave.........not likely to be seen by a phd god.....what if all the bats in that obscure cave died and no one noticed...........saying there is no incidence of wns spread by cavers is contrary to logic......

has anyone sent a survey form to all the posters who foo foo the idea of cavers spreading wns?........the survey should ask whether or not they personally decon.........hehehehehheh.......if they do, they are saying cavers can spread wns.........
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby speleo » Dec 5, 2010 11:20 pm

The cavers who argue in favor of migratory pathways do so for a reason. That seems to be what is happening. I don't think anybody is saying that cavers can't spread WNS,but that it is not a primary vector. The point has been repeatedly raised that if cavers spread WNS, why has it not made it into the big caves in TAG ( other than Worleys and Grindstaff ) where people from the northeast and other parts of the country come in large numbers every year. This was true before decon was promoted. The knee-jerk eco-zeolots seem to avoid answering this, but it is very clear that people continue to visit these caves and yet WNS is not in this area. The same argument has been made concerning Indiana in 2007. There were a good many cavers from the northeast there. I know because I went caving with them. Where is WNS in Indiana? I'm not saying it will not get there. I certainly hope it will not, but it has been three and a half years. The idea that cavers cave within migration routes is ridiculous. Go to conventions and regional gatherings and that notion should be quickly put to rest. I believe that we are all concerned about WNS and we all want to see the bats survive this problem, however, the evidence that cavers spread this disease is weak. Yes, some spores are tough. Does that mean that they all are? I am not a mycologist so I won't try to answer that, but I would be interested in hearing the opinion of someone who is knowledgable in that area. In the mean time I will continue to go caving on a regular basis since a large percentage of caves have no bats. Experienced cavers know this to be true.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 6, 2010 1:46 am

well...........i think it equally likely that cavers and bats visit caves along migratory routes with enough regularity that occassionaly they may cross pathways..to call it ridiculous is.....well....ridiculous..........let me make it simpler.....caver a lives in a region of the country where bat a lives.....bat a goes to a new location.....caver a driving around to caves might visit the cave where bat a is newly located.....i know of several bat caves in tag where different things happen....and the bats move around among them.......i might even visit them because they are within driving range.......got it?

i don't know where to start with those who can't grasp the significance of humans during the temporary period of time we now are in from an evolutionary standpoint as it relates to bats........the disasterous effect of the disease skipping thru areas among a continental population is something difficult to grasp without classroom time past high school..........several posts before this one i addressed this issue less superficially...if you reread that earlier part of this thread and do not understand why all artificial vectors must be eliminated during this ecological disaster, reread it at least once........then please get back to me and i will expand on my explaination as to cavers stopping all underground activity.....including especially scientists (unless actively treating wns) why it all should cease.......
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 6, 2010 2:03 am

oh...one last thing..........one of your arguments, maybe wns spores are puny and easily killed and not virile, the weakness of your arguments for unrestricted caving becomes obvious when you research the mycology of spores.......they are, by many, considered to be the ultimately survivable seed for dna in nature......if you are arguing against something at least spend a superficial amount of time goggling it......the importance of the issue should demand that in all of us and that includes all of us....people are influenced in their decisions and actions to some degree based on what you and i do and say.......that makes both me and you responsible for what they do and don't do whenever we speak out in public..............
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby NZcaver » Dec 6, 2010 3:53 am

All very interesting. But even if it were humanly possible for "everybody" to stop caving, all indications thus far suggest it won't make a bean of difference to the spread of WNS and the resultant effect on bat populations. It's not that humans couldn't spread WNS around the US - it's just that up to now it simply ain't happening to any verifiable degree, or even to a reasonable level of suspicion. Although of course that will continue to be debated ad nauseum with migration patterns and so forth.

You're welcome to stop caving if you wish, but know that many of us are continuing to go caving responsibly. Most are avoiding bat caves and hibernation sites, diligently doing more cleaning and decon, borrowing gear in other regions, avoiding moving biota between caves, etc. In the unlikely event of science one day proving humans are a real vector for spreading actual WNS to bats (not just moving spores around), then I imagine more stringent precautions will need to be taken. But based on current evidence, if cavers were to hypothetically all hang their heads and give up caving immediately bats would be no more protected than they are now.

And if that were to happen, the worst thing is the broader cave environment potentially loses us and future generations of its most ardent protectors. Meaning the cavers who discover, survey, inventory, preserve, observe, report, recreate, and educate others not only about bats but also the myriad of other cave biology, geology, hydrology, archaeology, paleontology... etc. That would be the greatest loss of all.

All just my opinion, of course.
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