Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

[Spike]

I've been fairly quite on this topic for sometime now, but there is a myth that keeps popping up, or at least alluded to in this thread. That myth is that cavers do not come into physical contact with bats in caves. It is true that we avoid Indiana and Gray Bat hibernacula, or summer roosts as appropriate. We even try not to disturb more common and tolerant species such as Eastern Pips while in caves. But cavers do accidently make physical contact with common dispersed roosting bats. I've seen it dozens of times by cavers that aren't being reckless, they just didn't see the bat hanging on the wall, or under a ledge and the poor bat gets dinged. Usually the ashamed caver gets scolded, the bat gets handled by a gloved caver and placed up and out of the way. In a post WNS world, doing the "right" thing and moving the bat to safety may no longer take place, but that accidental contact with a bat isn't only probable is inevitable given the numbers of cavers entering caves in a year. Now can GD stay viable on cave gear? I don't know, I hope not.

[John Lovaas]

...In a post WNS world, doing the "right" thing and moving the bat to safety may no longer take place, but that accidental contact with a bat isn't only probable is inevitable given the numbers of cavers entering caves in a year. Now can GD stay viable on cave gear? I don't know, I hope not.

Hi Spike-

Yes- viable Gd spores have been collected off of cave gear. It was a PA or NY experiment- Peter Youngbaer posted the abstract here- somewhere...

But that's why I decon my gear.

The only places where Gd spores(or positive PCR results for Gd- but I'll say spores) in floor deposits(or on walls) have been identified(so far) are in caves and mines where the hibernating colony has been impacted by WNS- and specifically where dead bats were found, and on, or underneath, roosting sites. No one has found Gd in cave sediments where WNS has not impacted the hibernacula- so far.

If we enter a cave where WNS has impacted the bats, and don't decon our gear after exiting the cave- then we are a potential vector- if we physically handle bats with our dirty gear in other caves, or if we are able to aerosolize the spores in another cave, or inoculate cave sediments successfully in another cave. But that's where decon comes in.

If we are traversing a cave with an infected colony, and get spores on our clothes, any incidental physical contact between a human and a bat is only one of that bat's problems in that particular cave on that day, I fear. And we should not have been in that cave. Hopefully, surveillance and monitoring would ID the presence of WNS in that cave before that point is reached.

Or we would have recognized the problem, taken a picture, and exited the cave.

In my previous comments about the human-bat vector, I didn't discuss bat handling- as that is, in my mind, in the realm of bat biologists. And I am aware that bat biologists aren't agreeing as to how much decon they should be doing to their sampling and handling gear- or how often. Hell, I've heard about disagreements as to how often- or if- mist nets should be cleaned. And a mist net seems like a perfect inoculation tool to me.

Mind you, I'm coming at this from an upper Midwest perspective; the caves I'm interested in have no bats(or at best 3 or 4 pips in the winter). I've have very little incidental contact with bats in my caving life- and if I had as much as you described- hell, I wouldn't be caving anymore. I hate disturbing bats. Hate it. Makes me want to throw my caving gear into a dumpster.


jl

[wyandottecaver]

Spike,

yes cavers do occasionally contact bats.

You will note I said that under those circumstances WNS transmission would be possible...but highly unlikely....AND insignificant. Here is why. Dozens of times you saw a caver accidently contact a bat (I've seen it maybe 6-8 times)....out of how many trips over how many years? For me its out of over 400 trips over nearly 12 years. How far will bat-bat spread go in that period?

That assumes that ANY contact will transfer GD thus WNS...More probably only the smallest of percentages would because 1) there have to be viable spores on the caver in that spot that contacts the bat and 2) those spores have to be able to infect the bat.

Now, as john said we have gotten cave spores from cave gear....immediately after exiting the cave using lab sampling gear (they went in specifically to try and collect spores when they exited). Even in that case they had great difficulty in culturing live fungus in the lab. Thats a long way from saying spores would be able to ride a cavers gear and infect a new site "in the wild".

So I agree that human bat contact would occur at very low incidence rates. I also agree that some very small percentage of those contacts might involve a "dirty" GD spore carrying caver. But how many of those contacts would involve a caver travelling beyond the normal rate of spread for bat-bat WNS? and how many of those contacts would actually result in a infection of a bat?

Without GD being able to self support in soil, then there simply isn't any way that human transmission CAN be significant unless its intentional. And in that case a basket of sick bats plucked out of a hibernacula works a lot lot better.

[Teresa]

Don't know about others, but I don't see human/bat contact in caves being a very big problem while caving unless you are a bat biologist. Yes, it is potential vector. That's why people should wash their stuff thoroughly and then disinfect if in that situation. No different from the fact that I'm moderately hygenic at my home (hey, I'm already living with those germs) but am more careful when visiting someone in the hospital about washing hands, touching surfaces, etc. since we know germs hang out in hospitals.

Long before GD, the bat borne threat was rabies. Accidental contact with bats meant lots of soap and water, even if the bat was asymptomatic, and proper followup if they were acting strangely. But not paranoia. GD does not seem to be a threat to humans, and yet, we are going to toxicologic extremes, even in circumstances where there is no evidence of infection. Two caves show up out of 6300 with "likely" (not even confirmed) cases of WNS, and every state and federal agency goes into hyper-reactivity, enacting regulations that *assume* the primary vector are humans (not true) and which do nothing to alter bat behavior, access or potential infectiousness.

It goes back to my analogy: you *can* get STDs from infected restroom seats, but the answer to preventing STD transmission isn't to Lysol every toilet seat. There are other transmission routes which have both a higher likelihood of infection, and other means of control.

The US F&W protocols were originally designed for bat biologists entering known infected caves and mines. They are not transferrable to wild cavers any more than every person who is in a cave with bats needs to have the prophylactic series of shots because there are records of aerosol rabies transmission.

I've written and submitted my comment on the US F&W Draft WNS Plan. Have you?

[tncaver]

Maybe the FEDS are keeping us all out of caves so we won't know they are renewing the old WWII plan to use bats as incendiary bombs
for an upcoming offensive that no one knows about yet.....like North Korea. Nothing the FEDS do surprises me any more. sort of.

[Mudduck]

I've written and submitted my comment on the US F&W Draft WNS Plan. Have you

Yep

[tncaver]

No. I wrote my senator instead.

[Mudduck]

I need to move to a state who would have a Senator that might listen to WNS information.

[tncaver]

I need to move to a state who would have a Senator that might listen to WNS information.

There's no guarantee my senator will listen.

[Teresa]

I wrote and spoke with my US rep's office several times. The difficulty is often they are fixated on "solving the problem" rather than listening to your opinion. Went back and forth, as a diligent staffer fed me information I already have. But you are likely to get more satisfaction from a US Rep than a senator who represents the whole state. I don't agree with my US rep's ultra-conservative politics, but by couching it as a citizen's rights and financial oversight issue I know at least I was heard.

Because the bureaucracy is what it is, agencies must, by law, make a record of comments submitted. That means *someone* has to read them at some point. Copying responses to the media is a good thing, too. Someone might pick up on it and do a story, esp. with the deadline for comment looming. Mr. Dunham from Vermont who wrote and distributed a letter to the editor earlier in the year, got coverage from my paper by doing just that thing. I'm following the whole WNS thing as it pertains to Missouri, and do my darndest to get stuff covered here.

Be a wheel (or a bat). Squeak!

[BrianC]

I have been firm in my understanding about G destructants spreading without already susceptible infected bats.I have gained this knowledge from more than 30 years of spore research. But Wyandotte, eyecave, and John L have given examples that it can happen by spores alone, without already infected bats. If indeed this does occur, we should adhere to cave closures, including keeping biologists out of caves, unless they obtain very stringent permits, where as we can follow their trails of research. We can gain incredible knowledge knowing where they go, what tests are performed, what benefits can be concluded form these trips. Federal money will be difficult to obtain from here on out, so exact science should be required before scientist can enter any bat cave. I would prefer not seeing amateur students involved inside cave environments, rather outside monitoring and surveillance information would be preferred for them. If it is possible for humans to spread WNS, then this is a no brainier!

I must apologize if I offended any of your expertise, but I really wanted some facts before being told by our federal government that I must refrain from my favorite hobby!

[eyecave]

...before you retort that fungi reproduce by other methods i know that already........please explain how producing millions and millions of individuals capable of establishing a completely new colony of geomyces destructans is less important than asexual fungi reproduction.....also, your simply implying that spores are not resistant to death or injury.....that is ridiculous sir.....they are THE MOST RESISTANT METHOD OF REPRODUCTION THUS DETECTED SIR...
..............

I am going to answer this question. You agree that the spores must have conditions enabled before the spores can open and grow? The entire reason that humans don't spread WNS is this---------- G Destructant spores aggressively sprout once an already vulnerable/ infected bat has come in contact with a susceptible bat. This infected bat also carries the G Destructant spore and transmits it while spreading the real cause of White Nose Syndrome. So without the infected bat in the equation, the uninfected bat doesn't succumb to the WNS. The is the case in a nutshell. To date, it has been four years without one single replication of the syndrome without the factual migratory spread. This determines that any original hypothesis about WNS spread if factually wrong, and a new hypothesis needs formed. Sorry, bu even science isn't right all the time.

Yes we move spores. No, not one single case provides evidence that those spores have turned into White Nose Syndrome. Get over it, and start thinking about why. You then must come to the same conclusion that I have.

i suppose time will tell.....actually, i am positive it will..tests to detect wns are rather crude at present and i am sure spore formation and asexual growth is not as rapid or efficient as sexual reproduction, (more likely in a colony and migration exclusive scenario........like i said, time will tell...........i hope you guys are right,.........i realize that sacrifice is difficult for some..impossible for others, just witness the lack of debate concerning restricted hibernation caving, not hibernaculum hibernation....but, even total extinction would not last forever...... ..

[commanderzoom]

Please tell me I'm not the only who's ever been dive-bombed by a bat? It's only happened to me maybe 6 times over about 17 years and most of them happened in the same section of the same cave, so it may very well have been the same bat. It had it out for me . Don't even ask how many caving trips I've been on in that time because I lost count around 200 and that was back when I was a teenager. That's extent of my physical contact with bats underground, unless I've brushed up against them without noticing. I don't really see why regular cavers would come into physical contact with bats very often unless they're in a cave with a heavy bat population. If any humans *are* spreading the WNS, I'd think it would more than likely be the bat biologists since they're the ones coming in close contact the most often. Am I wrong about that? Don't be shy, tell me if I am.

I still don't think it's a good idea to be spraying my gear down with all kinds of chemicals before going underground. I don't see how that can be good for the other forms of wildlife that live in there OR for the bats. I get a headache from bleach, Lysol, & Formula 409 so what's it doing to the little critters? Those chemicals also "burn" my skin and make it all itchy. What's it doing to them when those chemicals get in their water supply? Won't we have more than just the bats to worry about several years down the road if we keep decontaminating with all these chemicals? Is all the decontamination causing MORE contamination? Don't get me wrong, I do follow the WNS decontamination protocol because that's what I'm supposed to do but I'm not comfortable with it.

I hate to admit it but I'm almost to the point of not giving a rat's arse about the bats. ALMOST. Natural selection happens for a reason. If any bat species survive, they'll breed more of the resilient bats. If none of the bats survive, oh well. Nature will adapt to their loss and make up for their functions in other ways. That's how things worked since the beginning of time until scientists started creating various human and animal vaccines to override mother nature.

[commanderzoom]

Eek! I said that last part wrong and my internet connection's acting all screwy and won't let me edit . I hope nobody came away with the idea that I'm against human and animal vaccines because I'm not. I think they're great for the most part. I can't have several of them and neither can my kids so thank goodness other people CAN have them.

Are the biologists trying to come up with a vaccine for the WNS problem?

[Teresa]

Eek! I said that last part wrong and my internet connection's acting all screwy and won't let me edit . I hope nobody came away with the idea that I'm against human and animal vaccines because I'm not. I think they're great for the most part. I can't have several of them and neither can my kids so thank goodness other people CAN have them.

Are the biologists trying to come up with a vaccine for the WNS problem?

I don't think you can vaccinate against a fungus. Eugene said the med researchers have never come up with such a thing. Vaccination, by definition, gives you a little bitty case of whatever the obnoxious germ is, (even if it is a killed strain, and doesn't actually cause the disease) in order for the body to develop antibodies against the critter.

If you could vaccinate against a fungus, we'd all get athlete's foot vaccinations, histoplasmosis vaccinations, etc.