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BrianC wrote:I have been firm in my understanding about G destructants spreading without already susceptible infected bats.I have gained this knowledge from more than 30 years of spore research. But Wyandotte, eyecave, and John L have given examples that it can happen by spores alone, without already infected bats. If indeed this does occur, we should adhere to cave closures, including keeping biologists out of caves, unless they obtain very stringent permits, where as we can follow their trails of research. We can gain incredible knowledge knowing where they go, what tests are performed, what benefits can be concluded form these trips. Federal money will be difficult to obtain from here on out, so exact science should be required before scientist can enter any bat cave. I would prefer not seeing amateur students involved inside cave environments, rather outside monitoring and surveillance information would be preferred for them. If it is possible for humans to spread WNS, then this is a no brainier!
I must apologize if I offended any of your expertise, but I really wanted some facts before being told by our federal government that I must refrain from my favorite hobby!
eyecave wrote:BrianC wrote:I have been firm in my understanding about G destructants spreading without already susceptible infected bats.I have gained this knowledge from more than 30 years of spore research. But Wyandotte, eyecave, and John L have given examples that it can happen by spores alone, without already infected bats. If indeed this does occur, we should adhere to cave closures, including keeping biologists out of caves, unless they obtain very stringent permits, where as we can follow their trails of research. We can gain incredible knowledge knowing where they go, what tests are performed, what benefits can be concluded form these trips. Federal money will be difficult to obtain from here on out, so exact science should be required before scientist can enter any bat cave. I would prefer not seeing amateur students involved inside cave environments, rather outside monitoring and surveillance information would be preferred for them. If it is possible for humans to spread WNS, then this is a no brainier!
I must apologize if I offended any of your expertise, but I really wanted some facts before being told by our federal government that I must refrain from my favorite hobby!
no, not keep cavers from spreading spores.........what is at risk is the movement of the wns from upper north america to mexico or south america.............sudden transmission of a viable wns spore from new england or upper northeast tennessee or oklahoma or parts of canada to mexico, middle america, or south america without evolution being involved.....where a "dirty" caver carrying the geomyces destructans introduced any viable manifestation of this fungus into a bat population on a much earlier time scale than evolution and bat migration routes would have involved them..............
simply stated.....the concern is not the normal spread of wns.......indeed......wns is an organism that would benefit most by having a successful symbiotic relationship with its host..not killing it...............that is a rather obvious topic that no one seems to note or discuss.............in this obvious genetically favorable scenario....... the bats will survive...so all you worried cavers.....relax.....its already decided if nature has its course.......
but;......if some vector transmits the fungi across continents suddenly.........you lose the working mechanisms of evolution and genetics.......the obvious risk of species extinction should outweigh the obvious inconvenience of finding another sports outlet for the next ten years other than caving.......some of us can see these things......most do not.....so don't feel too bad, you are in the majority!...yeaaaaa, you win................
BrianC wrote:Much of what I say is very sarcastic! The USFWS has been making grave errors in policy, so I feel sarcasm is very effective in provoking thought about those policies.
Cavernuke wrote:I have noticed people on this forum tend to be exceptionally humor impaired.
wyandottecaver wrote:Brian C, I wish you luck and fortune in trying to make anything clear to certain posters....
Cavernuke wrote:BrianC wrote:Much of what I say is very sarcastic! The USFWS has been making grave errors in policy, so I feel sarcasm is very effective in provoking thought about those policies.
I have noticed people on this forum tend to be exceptionally humor impaired. Excuse me - I've got to adjust my asbestos flame-shield for the response I am about to receive.
Nuke
tncaver wrote:eyecave,
If WNS was spread by cavers,the bats in Blue Spring Cave in TN would have had it years ago. There are bats in the cave and that cave has visitors from all over
this country as well as from Europe yet the bats are still healthy. Visitors walk right by those bats on their way farther into the cave. The cave is not a
major hibernacula but there are bats that hibernate there every winter. If cavers spread WNS, Blue Spring Cave would have been one of the first caves infected, yet it STILL IS NOT. Eventually bats may bring in the disease, but so
far humans have not, and there have been thousands of humans in that cave since WNS was first discovered in New York. Bottom line is, cavers do not
spread WNS.
tncaver wrote:eyecave,
If WNS was spread by cavers,the bats in Blue Spring Cave in TN would have had it years ago. There are bats in the cave and that cave has visitors from all over
this country as well as from Europe yet the bats are still healthy. Visitors walk right by those bats on their way farther into the cave. The cave is not a
major hibernacula but there are bats that hibernate there every winter. If cavers spread WNS, Blue Spring Cave would have been one of the first caves infected, yet it STILL IS NOT. Eventually bats may bring in the disease, but so
far humans have not, and there have been thousands of humans in that cave since WNS was first discovered in New York. Bottom line is, cavers do not
spread WNS.
eyecave wrote:tncaver wrote:eyecave,
If WNS was spread by cavers,the bats in Blue Spring Cave in TN would have had it years ago. There are bats in the cave and that cave has visitors from all over
this country as well as from Europe yet the bats are still healthy. Visitors walk right by those bats on their way farther into the cave. The cave is not a
major hibernacula but there are bats that hibernate there every winter. If cavers spread WNS, Blue Spring Cave would have been one of the first caves infected, yet it STILL IS NOT. Eventually bats may bring in the disease, but so
far humans have not, and there have been thousands of humans in that cave since WNS was first discovered in New York. Bottom line is, cavers do not
spread WNS.
correct me if i am wrong.........has any bat biostudentgroup done a study to see if very widespread isolated milder infestations of wns are present anywhere in TAG?.....HAVE THE BATS IN BLUE SPRING BEEN SUBJECTED TO THE PHYSIOLOGICAL STRESS OF BEING DISTURBED DURING HIBERNATION BY PHD'S AND "DR'S" ENGAGED IN ACTIVITIES JUSTIFYING MONEY SPENT ON EDUCATION...and other things.........GUYS searching for isolated mild infectlijon situations, which are what would be found if these people who think isolated incidences of infections caused by cavers spreading spores was happening..i bet not......ps cavers reporting a pile of dead bats aren't what i am talking about.......i found a pile of dead bats......10 or so in ellison's, the upper part, at the most 3 years ago.......in the room before the first drop.....was it wns? or was it vandals?...i don't know..................................
and another thing...........how long does a colony of wns fungus have to grow to just be visible on a bat...you might be aware that until very recently a tissue sample size larger than compatible with the health of the bat was necessary to histologically verify, smaller tissue sizes are very and just recent, so smaller size detection was much less liikely or not even undertaken................and does colony size and growth vary if the surroudingng bats are infected or are not infected, or also by cave conditions, of course it does?.....how likely is it that symbiosis will be the outcome?........how many of you have even heard the term.....goggle it
......so what about the potentially ecologically fatal possibility that you might be wrong about any possibility on the points i raise?.... ...or, that the government is right!.....how crazy is that ......the voice of reason, a not always pleasant voice.........
eyecave wrote:tncaver wrote:eyecave,
If WNS was spread by cavers,the bats in Blue Spring Cave in TN would have had it years ago. There are bats in the cave and that cave has visitors from all over
this country as well as from Europe yet the bats are still healthy. Visitors walk right by those bats on their way farther into the cave. The cave is not a
major hibernacula but there are bats that hibernate there every winter. If cavers spread WNS, Blue Spring Cave would have been one of the first caves infected, yet it STILL IS NOT. Eventually bats may bring in the disease, but so
far humans have not, and there have been thousands of humans in that cave since WNS was first discovered in New York. Bottom line is, cavers do not
spread WNS.
what would represent an infestation to you sir?
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