Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Mudduck » Dec 26, 2010 9:32 pm

If you wanna get dive bombed , try being the only light in the middle of a river at night. All the bugs are around u and your boat. Last time It went on for hours.(we were fishing btw)
I think I can...I think I can...I think I can
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 28, 2010 2:08 am

BrianC wrote:I have been firm in my understanding about G destructants spreading without already susceptible infected bats.I have gained this knowledge from more than 30 years of spore research. But Wyandotte, eyecave, and John L have given examples that it can happen by spores alone, without already infected bats. If indeed this does occur, we should adhere to cave closures, including keeping biologists out of caves, unless they obtain very stringent permits, where as we can follow their trails of research. We can gain incredible knowledge knowing where they go, what tests are performed, what benefits can be concluded form these trips. Federal money will be difficult to obtain from here on out, so exact science should be required before scientist can enter any bat cave. I would prefer not seeing amateur students involved inside cave environments, rather outside monitoring and surveillance information would be preferred for them. If it is possible for humans to spread WNS, then this is a no brainier!

:doh: I must apologize if I offended any of your expertise, but I really wanted some facts before being told by our federal government that I must refrain from my favorite hobby!



no, not keep cavers from spreading spores.........what is at risk is the movement of the wns from upper north america to mexico or south america.............sudden transmission of a viable wns spore from new england or upper northeast tennessee or oklahoma or parts of canada to mexico, middle america, or south america without evolution being involved.....where a "dirty" caver carrying the geomyces destructans introduced any viable manifestation of this fungus into a bat population on a much earlier time scale than evolution and bat migration routes would have involved them..............

simply stated.....the concern is not the normal spread of wns.......indeed......wns is an organism that would benefit most by having a successful symbiotic relationship with its host..not killing it...............that is a rather obvious topic that no one seems to note or discuss.............in this obvious genetically favorable scenario....... the bats will survive...so all you worried cavers.....relax.....its already decided if nature has its course.......

but;......if some vector transmits the fungi across continents suddenly.........you lose the working mechanisms of evolution and genetics.......the obvious risk of species extinction should outweigh the obvious inconvenience of finding another sports outlet for the next ten years other than caving.......some of us can see these things......most do not.....so don't feel too bad, you are in the majority!...yeaaaaa, you win................
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby tncaver » Dec 28, 2010 8:02 am

eyecave,
If WNS was spread by cavers,the bats in Blue Spring Cave in TN would have had it years ago. There are bats in the cave and that cave has visitors from all over
this country as well as from Europe yet the bats are still healthy. Visitors walk right by those bats on their way farther into the cave. The cave is not a
major hibernacula but there are bats that hibernate there every winter. If cavers spread WNS, Blue Spring Cave would have been one of the first caves infected, yet it STILL IS NOT. Eventually bats may bring in the disease, but so
far humans have not, and there have been thousands of humans in that cave since WNS was first discovered in New York. Bottom line is, cavers do not
spread WNS.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Steve Pitts » Dec 28, 2010 12:57 pm

TNCaver, that is exactly my opinion as well. Fern Cave in Jackson County, Alabama has been extremely popular for 30 years now. Cavers from all over the US and some from Canada and Europe have been visiting the cave, all this time. As of a few months ago, there were no signs of WNS in the bat colony in Fern Cave. Actually I think the same principal applies to all of TAG. If cavers were a primary vector for WNS, it would already be in all of the popular caves in TAG. Meanwhile the Fish and Wildlife Service has closed caves all over the US based on bad science. I suspect that if people are spreading WNS, it is biologists that are going into infected caves that are doing so. I have been following this very closely, since our 20 year survey project in Fern Cave has been stopped. It is interesting to note that during the entire 30 years I have been visiting Fern Cave, not one single person from the Fish and Wildlife Service has set foot in the cave, yet they think they know whats best for managing the cave, and the caving community is totaly excluded from managent involvement. Guess who has been doing their field work all these years? Guess who originally found the bat colony in Fern Cave? Cavers from the Huntsville Grotto. The truth is that the Fish and Wildlife Service knows absolutley nothing about caves and is in no position to set cave access policies without close colaboration with the caving community.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 28, 2010 3:26 pm

eyecave wrote:
BrianC wrote:I have been firm in my understanding about G destructants spreading without already susceptible infected bats.I have gained this knowledge from more than 30 years of spore research. But Wyandotte, eyecave, and John L have given examples that it can happen by spores alone, without already infected bats. If indeed this does occur, we should adhere to cave closures, including keeping biologists out of caves, unless they obtain very stringent permits, where as we can follow their trails of research. We can gain incredible knowledge knowing where they go, what tests are performed, what benefits can be concluded form these trips. Federal money will be difficult to obtain from here on out, so exact science should be required before scientist can enter any bat cave. I would prefer not seeing amateur students involved inside cave environments, rather outside monitoring and surveillance information would be preferred for them. If it is possible for humans to spread WNS, then this is a no brainier!

:doh: I must apologize if I offended any of your expertise, but I really wanted some facts before being told by our federal government that I must refrain from my favorite hobby!



no, not keep cavers from spreading spores.........what is at risk is the movement of the wns from upper north america to mexico or south america.............sudden transmission of a viable wns spore from new england or upper northeast tennessee or oklahoma or parts of canada to mexico, middle america, or south america without evolution being involved.....where a "dirty" caver carrying the geomyces destructans introduced any viable manifestation of this fungus into a bat population on a much earlier time scale than evolution and bat migration routes would have involved them..............

simply stated.....the concern is not the normal spread of wns.......indeed......wns is an organism that would benefit most by having a successful symbiotic relationship with its host..not killing it...............that is a rather obvious topic that no one seems to note or discuss.............in this obvious genetically favorable scenario....... the bats will survive...so all you worried cavers.....relax.....its already decided if nature has its course.......

but;......if some vector transmits the fungi across continents suddenly.........you lose the working mechanisms of evolution and genetics.......the obvious risk of species extinction should outweigh the obvious inconvenience of finding another sports outlet for the next ten years other than caving.......some of us can see these things......most do not.....so don't feel too bad, you are in the majority!...yeaaaaa, you win................


eyecave, I want to be very clear! I don't believe that humans spread White Nose Syndrome! In light of our federal government finding that we do, ( Coleman USFWS), I must adhere to the federal guidelines that mandate that we stop caving. And I don't want to offend any person's scientific ability (which I have many times), that is my apology. In light of these issues, I would demand that scientific studies be performed only by qualified accredited individuals. No one should be allowed to cave just because they are friends of someone that has some pull with USFWS personnel. That would just be wrong! If indeed humans spread WNS, No person should be allowed inside of any cave. Really, even studying bats would be spreading WNS the way you state it. What's right is right! Extremism goes both ways. If caves should be closed, close them. If humans are going to be entering caves, open them!

Much of what I say is very sarcastic! The USFWS has been making grave errors in policy, so I feel sarcasm is very effective in provoking thought about those policies.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Cavernuke » Dec 28, 2010 5:26 pm

BrianC wrote:Much of what I say is very sarcastic! The USFWS has been making grave errors in policy, so I feel sarcasm is very effective in provoking thought about those policies.


I have noticed people on this forum tend to be exceptionally humor impaired. Excuse me - I've got to adjust my asbestos flame-shield for the response I am about to receive.

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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby NZcaver » Dec 28, 2010 5:43 pm

Cavernuke wrote:I have noticed people on this forum tend to be exceptionally humor impaired.

Some people, yes. If you're going to be humorous, sarcastic, or imply anything other than the face value of your words, try using the emoticons/smilies over there on the right. One click is all it takes to avoid many unnecessary flames. :flamed:
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby wyandottecaver » Dec 28, 2010 6:43 pm

Brian C, I wish you luck and fortune in trying to make anything clear to certain posters.... :hairpull:
I'm not scared of the dark, it's the things IN the dark that make me nervous. :)
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 29, 2010 10:49 pm

]


but;......if some vector transmits the fungi across continents suddenly.........you lose the working mechanisms of evolution and genetics.......the obvious risk of species extinction should outweigh the obvious inconvenience of finding another sports outlet for the next ten years other than caving.......some of us can see these things......most do not.....so don't feel too b


eyecave, I want to be very clear! I don't believe that humans spread White Nose Syndrome! In light of our federal government finding that we do, ( Coleman USFWS), I must adhere to the federal guidelines that mandate that we stop caving. And I don't want to offend any person's scientific ability (which I have many times), that is my apology. In light of these issues, I would demand that scientific studies be performed only by qualified accredited individuals. No one should be allowed to cave just because they are friends of someone that has some pull with USFWS personnel. That would just be wrong! If indeed humans spread WNS, No person should be allowed inside of any cave. Really, even studying bats would be spreading WNS the way you state it. What's right is right! Extremism goes both ways. If caves should be closed, close them. If humans are going to be entering caves, open them!

Much of what I say is very sarcastic! The USFWS has been making grave errors in policy, so I feel sarcasm is very effective in provoking thought about those policies.[/quote]

thanks for recognizing that "qualified research persons" could actually be dangerous to bats and even worse the highest concentrations of bats..........that is not sarcasm on either your or my part.....medical hygiene errors have actually happened in the past.........

let me make myself clear........cavers should stop going into all caves in all areas of known wns out to "normal migratory" bat flight distances.........that should change as wns spreads across north, middle and south america......it should evolve with the spread......i realize that what i am doing next is too complex for most people........i am going to go to my next point and then come back to this point.......

cavers should stop all cave activity within a circled area of known wns caves and migratory area during ANY MONTH of bat hibernation times.........not just main concentrations.........all caves for all bats.......got that?...(of course........of course a variety of sacrificial caves could be sacrificed!!)......but all those obscure or rarely visited or big enough to have bats but not a hibernaculareum sized or configuration thing.......all of-em......closed during any hibernation period of time...........

now back to the infestation spread concept by whatever the heck method.....as wns spreads so will the areas of cave restrictions....at some point resumption of non hibernation caving should generally resume in the first wns infestation areas and then the "other closures" reopened in the order they were imposed.......hopefully, by then, bats would either have adapted to the fungus and it pass into the symbiotic stage which is the logical thing for it to do anyway...just for my persona edification i will stop and ask...do any of you understand what i mean by that?
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 29, 2010 11:14 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:Brian C, I wish you luck and fortune in trying to make anything clear to certain posters.... :hairpull:


i could say ditto aussi..... :laughing: ...i would add that simple concept shifts are often missed by people who know everything.... :big grin: ...and, i know of some posters who have obvious gaps showing they have not researched some very basic concepts... :off topic: ...especially those disputing anything they already think they know completely......and, since they cannot see, they never will know.........that is sad....researching these three goggles.." fungi reproduction facilitation" has improved my understanding during this discussion..... :roll: ..........
Last edited by eyecave on Dec 29, 2010 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 29, 2010 11:17 pm

Cavernuke wrote:
BrianC wrote:Much of what I say is very sarcastic! The USFWS has been making grave errors in policy, so I feel sarcasm is very effective in provoking thought about those policies.


I have noticed people on this forum tend to be exceptionally humor impaired. Excuse me - I've got to adjust my asbestos flame-shield for the response I am about to receive.

Nuke


devil advocate types can take their thoughts and go to a dark cave .,..find a quiet place and argue with themselves until their batteries run dry............
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 29, 2010 11:20 pm

tncaver wrote:eyecave,
If WNS was spread by cavers,the bats in Blue Spring Cave in TN would have had it years ago. There are bats in the cave and that cave has visitors from all over
this country as well as from Europe yet the bats are still healthy. Visitors walk right by those bats on their way farther into the cave. The cave is not a
major hibernacula but there are bats that hibernate there every winter. If cavers spread WNS, Blue Spring Cave would have been one of the first caves infected, yet it STILL IS NOT. Eventually bats may bring in the disease, but so
far humans have not, and there have been thousands of humans in that cave since WNS was first discovered in New York. Bottom line is, cavers do not
spread WNS.


what would represent an infestation to you sir?
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 29, 2010 11:29 pm

tncaver wrote:eyecave,
If WNS was spread by cavers,the bats in Blue Spring Cave in TN would have had it years ago. There are bats in the cave and that cave has visitors from all over
this country as well as from Europe yet the bats are still healthy. Visitors walk right by those bats on their way farther into the cave. The cave is not a
major hibernacula but there are bats that hibernate there every winter. If cavers spread WNS, Blue Spring Cave would have been one of the first caves infected, yet it STILL IS NOT. Eventually bats may bring in the disease, but so
far humans have not, and there have been thousands of humans in that cave since WNS was first discovered in New York. Bottom line is, cavers do not
spread WNS.


so what about the potentially ecologically fatal possibility that you might be wrong.......or, that the government is right!.....how crazy is that.......
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 30, 2010 12:59 am

eyecave wrote:
tncaver wrote:eyecave,
If WNS was spread by cavers,the bats in Blue Spring Cave in TN would have had it years ago. There are bats in the cave and that cave has visitors from all over
this country as well as from Europe yet the bats are still healthy. Visitors walk right by those bats on their way farther into the cave. The cave is not a
major hibernacula but there are bats that hibernate there every winter. If cavers spread WNS, Blue Spring Cave would have been one of the first caves infected, yet it STILL IS NOT. Eventually bats may bring in the disease, but so
far humans have not, and there have been thousands of humans in that cave since WNS was first discovered in New York. Bottom line is, cavers do not
spread WNS.


correct me if i am wrong.........has any bat biostudentgroup done a study to see if very widespread isolated milder infestations of wns are present anywhere in TAG?.....HAVE THE BATS IN BLUE SPRING BEEN SUBJECTED TO THE PHYSIOLOGICAL STRESS OF BEING DISTURBED DURING HIBERNATION BY PHD'S AND "DR'S" ENGAGED IN ACTIVITIES JUSTIFYING MONEY SPENT ON EDUCATION...and other things.........GUYS searching for isolated mild infectlijon situations, which are what would be found if these people who think isolated incidences of infections caused by cavers spreading spores was happening..i bet not......ps cavers reporting a pile of dead bats aren't what i am talking about.......i found a pile of dead bats......10 or so in ellison's, the upper part, at the most 3 years ago.......in the room before the first drop.....was it wns? or was it vandals?...i don't know..................................

and another thing...........how long does a colony of wns fungus have to grow to just be visible on a bat...you might be aware that until very recently a tissue sample size larger than compatible with the health of the bat was necessary to histologically verify, smaller tissue sizes are very and just recent, so smaller size detection was much less liikely or not even undertaken................and does colony size and growth vary if the surroudingng bats are infected or are not infected, or also by cave conditions, of course it does?.....how likely is it that symbiosis will be the outcome?........how many of you have even heard the term.....goggle it

......so what about :cave softly: the potentially ecologically :cave softly: fatal possibility that you might be wrong :cave softly: about any possibility on the points i raise?.... :cave softly: ...or, that the government is right!.....how crazy is that :shhh: ......the voice of reason, a not always pleasant voice.........
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby tncaver » Dec 30, 2010 7:19 am

eyecave wrote:
tncaver wrote:eyecave,
If WNS was spread by cavers,the bats in Blue Spring Cave in TN would have had it years ago. There are bats in the cave and that cave has visitors from all over
this country as well as from Europe yet the bats are still healthy. Visitors walk right by those bats on their way farther into the cave. The cave is not a
major hibernacula but there are bats that hibernate there every winter. If cavers spread WNS, Blue Spring Cave would have been one of the first caves infected, yet it STILL IS NOT. Eventually bats may bring in the disease, but so
far humans have not, and there have been thousands of humans in that cave since WNS was first discovered in New York. Bottom line is, cavers do not
spread WNS.


what would represent an infestation to you sir?


Dead bats, and or white stuff on the nose area of the bats most likely.

As for "what if", we could talk what ifs forever and it wouldn't change anything, Dan.
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