Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

[eyecave]

mmediately bats would be no more protected than they are now.

And if that were to happen, the worst thing is the broader cave environment potentially loses us and future generations of its most ardent protectors. Meaning the cavers who discover, survey, inventory, preserve, observe, report, recreate, and educate others not only about bats but also the myriad of other cave biology, geology, hydrology, archaeology, paleontology... etc. That would be the greatest loss of all.

All just my opinion, of course.

WELL NOW ITS NOT GIVING UP CAVING FOR A LIFETIME, JUST THAT ONE TRIP LONG ENOUGH FOR BATS CAPABLE OF SURVIVING THEIR FIRST ENCOUNTER WITH WNS DIED BECAUSE THEY WERE WEAKENED THAT FIRST WINTER AND WE WALKED THRU THEIR BEDROOM......AND NOT JUST THAT BAT IN BAT CAVE X BECAUSE, DARNIT, CHANCE IS ALWAYS SURPRISING US ISN'T IT.......THERE IS ANOTHER EIGHT BATS IN MUCH SMALLER NON BAT CAVE CAVES SCATTERED AROUND THAT AREA THAT HAVE THAT GENE THAT ENABLES SURVIVAL....THEY WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO BE DISTURBED DURING THAT FIRST PERIOD WHERE THEY WERE TRYING TO ADAPT TO THE WNS FUNGUS....

[eyecave]

COME on now, you can follow the advice of mycologists for just a short while can't you...........

your last paragraph contains a marvelous assortment of letters and words that read delightfully..........put temporarily somewhere in the beginning and reread.....thats whats going to end up happening folks........

[caverdan]

i meant to say that you are saying that multiple factors can influence the reproductive activity of anything.....how can i argue that.......however, if you find out how fungi reproduce and realize that these conditions exist in all caves pretty much....a degree in micro isn't required to locate the answer......goggle fungi reproduction....

So do the GD spores reproduce by fragmentation or sporulation?

[BrianC]

....i restate a question i asked earlier......how do fungi reproduce?........

This eyecave is the most interesting question of all, and I am sure glad you asked. Without Paid Hih or her Dues before or behind my name doesn't say someone doesn't have the intelligence to understand or research scientific facts, just that publishing and understanding by the rest of that community won't occur. Now fungi (the word here is stated as White Nose Syndrome) requires a host to develop into the fungus WNS. The host is a susceptible bat in this case. Susceptible, again in this case, is a bat that has some immunity disorder that has developed from contact with an already infected bat. The million dollar question is why does it develop? If you have read many of the posts here, you will see that there is no dispute that WNS occurs. You will though, see facts that show humans are not part of the spreading of the WNS equation, again with facts pertaining to when and where cavers have caved since before, during, and after the first bats were diagnosed with the WNS syndrome in New York, four years ago. The trail of destruction from WNS has indeed though, followed a very well known migratory route. If this isn't factual science, then science is wrong, and the letters PHD, aren't worth a darn.

[Leitmotiv]

I can't even follow this thread because eyecave's typed english is poor and his use of the "quoting" button nonexistant.

[BrianC]

I can't even follow this thread because eyecave's typed english is poor and his use of the "quoting" button nonexistant.

I wouldn't sweat the small stuff.

[tncaver]

I can't even follow this thread because eyecave's typed english is poor and his use of the "quoting" button nonexistant.

......you think.......? ......one can't help but wonder.......about the thought...processes that are going on....inside that head..........

[speleo]

As a retired teacher, I can tell you that I would give his posts a failing grade if they were turned in as an assignment. But, I only have a normal level of education.

[John Lovaas]

Susceptible, again in this case, is a bat that has some immunity disorder that has developed from contact with an already infected bat.

Very little is known about bat immunology worldwide, and we don't really know anything about how B and T cells(lymphocytes/'white blood cells) function in North American bats.

In order to say there is an immunity disorder involved, we need to be able to define what a healthy bat immune system is, so as to be able to recognize a compromised immune system.

And science has not yet arrived at a place where we can say- here is the definition of a healthy bat immune system.

[BrianC]

Susceptible, again in this case, is a bat that has some immunity disorder that has developed from contact with an already infected bat.

Very little is known about bat immunology worldwide, and we don't really know anything about how B and T cells(lymphocytes/'white blood cells) function in North American bats.

In order to say there is an immunity disorder involved, we need to be able to define what a healthy bat immune system is, so as to be able to recognize a compromised immune system.

And science has not yet arrived at a place where we can say- here is the definition of a healthy bat immune system.

Points are correct, but why obliterate the obvious? It may not be an immunity to viral strains, rather an occurrence of missing another fighting agent therefore leaving the bats compromised and susceptible to the fungus.

[John Lovaas]

Points are correct, but why obliterate the obvious? It may not be an immunity to viral strains, rather an occurrence of missing another fighting agent therefore leaving the bats compromised and susceptible to the fungus.

Brian- I'm not sure what I obliterated. Our immune systems protect us(and bats) from all sort of things, including fungi.

[eyecave]

As a retired teacher, I can tell you that I would give his posts a failing grade if they were turned in as an assignment. But, I only have a normal level of education.

so if dorothy richardson, virginia woolf or james joyce as kids had been in your classroom you would have given them a failing grade if they had turned in an assignment written in stream of conciousness style............

[eyecave]

I can't even follow this thread because eyecave's typed english is poor and his use of the "quoting" button nonexistant.

......you think.......? ......one can't help but wonder.......about the thought...processes that are going on....inside that head..........

you think?.......one can't help but wonder about thought process going on inside that head!.....

i had to correct what you tried to do......stick to regular grammar tncaver and try to argue the substance of my points....

[eyecave]

i meant to say that you are saying that multiple factors can influence the reproductive activity of anything.....how can i argue that.......however, if you find out how fungi reproduce and realize that these conditions exist in all caves pretty much....a degree in micro isn't required to locate the answer......goggle fungi reproduction....

So do the GD spores reproduce by fragmentation or sporulation?

definitely via spores.......most fungi have other means of reproducing like fragmentation..........

[NZcaver]

(Warning - what follows is a long post carefully formatted with quotations.)

i am sure that you will address select parts of my answers to you...

I'm not even sure that I'm the "you" you're referring to here, because you've been jumping all over the place quoting others multiple times without actually stating what you were doing. I'll try to address all your questions and comments which I think were directed to me. By the way, thank you for starting to use the quote button. It makes your more recent posts a lot easier to follow.

i don't think a further discussion will be fruitful for you as long as your arguments revolve around denying that spores are how fungi reproduce........you are also denying indirectly that the reproductive activities of this species of fungus requires the activities of other factors...how can this argument be countered......i restate a question i asked earlier......how do fungi reproduce?.....a degree in micro isn't required to locate the answer....

I never said "fungi doesn't spread via spores" - even though you seem to think I did. Please read my previous post carefully, but don't try to read too much into it. When I said GD turned up in Oklahoma with no WNS, I wasn't trying to say fungi doesn't reproduce with spores. Obviously they do. I was simply trying to point out that the presence of GD in a cave does not automatically mean the bats in that cave will develop WNS. Ergo, the relationship between GD and WNS should not be an automatic assumption in all cases. That's all.

humans are certainly the only one of those creatures you allude to that are completely controllable...

I can't tell if you're trying to be sarcastic here or not. If you think humans are "completely controllable," you should probably keep studying those "normal human characteristics" you mentioned earlier. If a cave is closed but not physically (and effectively) gated, there's no guarantee humans will stay out. Organized cavers may respect closures, but many decades of evidence shows that spelunkers, local kids, and other casual visitors won't.

i can't see my making a claim for inventing decon....

You didn't. But when somebody says "you will see that perhaps my ideas may have made a difference" I assume they're trying to take credit for something.

...i am making a slightly sarcastic statement about "most" deconning properly and "most" avoiding bat populated caves.....my point being "most" won't work here........its gotta be all......

Technically you're correct here, but in practice you're wrong. There will never be universal 100% compliance with decon protocols, nor with staying out of bat caves. It's that human nature thing again. But that's OK. Caves are not clean rooms. Biota is moving in and out all the time. If we simply rinse our gear, we're probably removing the vast majority of spores. Proper washing with soap will remove even more. Following up with full decon protocols gives everybody (cavers, agencies, landowners etc) maximum confidence that we're "doing all we can" to contain GD. This is a good thing. But will there ever be 100% certainty? No. Even if the science of decon was totally sound (which it's not), human error and a fickle environment are still big variables.

....your answer, "fungi don't spread via spores"..(goggle "fungi reproduction")...how can i present my points....when that answer is how you justify continued caving activity and opposition to most restrictions...."normal human characteristics"......i have spent my life studying that subject and i am absolutely convinced that the majority of human behavior is instinctively controlled.....humans have a characteristic called selfishness...they are born with it, ask any parent, your blind defense of unrestricted caving is, in my opinion completely normal for you and all of the other cavers who see wns management protocol as a permanent end to all caving instead of being an inconvenient evolutionary period of time...

Again, I never said "fungi doesn't spread via spores." Just because you misquote me several times, doesn't make it true.

Humans are selfish. OK, sure. I assume this includes you too? But we are also selfless. And we are proud, but humble. And generous, but thrifty. Well, I think you get the picture. We're complex beings.

I really don't think I have a "blind defense of unrestricted caving." I obey cave closures, and landowner wishes. I would like to think WNS management protocols by various agencies are not a deliberate attempt to end all caving. This may sound selfish, but increasingly I suspect some agencies see cavers, cave exploration, and even other cave science as acceptable collateral damage in the fight against WNS. How exactly do you "fight" something when you don't even really know what it is? Of course - close all the caves! Never mind that based on current evidence, blanket cave closures with no end in sight are unlikely to achieve any tangible positive results. They look and feel good on paper to politicians and the uneducated public, but those who really care about caves know better. Or perhaps while it's noble for us to care about (and avoid) bats, taking an interest in the rest of the cave environment - and continuing to experience it ourselves - is selfish?

WELL NOW ITS NOT GIVING UP CAVING FOR A LIFETIME, JUST THAT ONE TRIP LONG ENOUGH FOR BATS CAPABLE OF SURVIVING THEIR FIRST ENCOUNTER WITH WNS DIED BECAUSE THEY WERE WEAKENED THAT FIRST WINTER AND WE WALKED THRU THEIR BEDROOM...

Specific closures of significant bat caves during certain periods - sure. I've always been supportive of restricting human access to significant bat caves when hibernation and maternity colonies are present. But again, mass closures which are enacted as a vague "precaution" without proper planning may be very difficult to reverse. Then after losing access to a significant portion of caves in the US "for an undetermined/indefinite period of time" we start to lose our active caving community. And with it all those benefits of cave conservation, education, science, exploration etc which I mentioned earlier.

This might sound like I'm a conspiracy nutjob. No offence to those forum members who are (and more power to you), but I'm not. However with what's been going on with certain Forest Service regions and the nonsense coming from states like Wisconsin I really have to wonder. A significant number of agency wildlife biologists around the US really seem to believe humans are the problem because they spread WNS to bats. Not just that we "could" possibly spread it, but that it's an established fact! Semantics perhaps, but your taxes are helping pay for this ignorance. Yes, there's bad apples in every bunch and thankfully others seem to be getting it right. Or at least keeping an open scientific mind. Unfortunately right now they're in the silent minority.

does anyone disagree that stopping all caving activities within the say 30 mile area of wns infected cave during all hibernation months is a reasonable idea?.....

Depends. If a cave in that 30 miles area has a significant bat colony which humans a likely to disturb - sure, it's probably best left undisturbed. Otherwise, why? Just because there's a chance some bats might appear in a different cave? Are we also going to close all attics, barns, tunnels, and other possible roosting sites?

wns, how long has it been around in other parts of the world?.......

A European phenomenon with similar fungal symptoms but without the mortality has been known about since the 1980's, as I recall.