Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 8, 2010 9:59 am

John Lovaas wrote:
BrianC wrote:Points are correct, but why obliterate the obvious? It may not be an immunity to viral strains, rather an occurrence of missing another fighting agent therefore leaving the bats compromised and susceptible to the fungus.


Brian- I'm not sure what I obliterated. Our immune systems protect us(and bats) from all sort of things, including fungi.


My sincere apologies John! I was actually referring to WNS not reacting to what would be expected from a normal immunity response. Using white blood cells to determine elevated levels created for fighting the host infection. You are right in this sense. Wns doesn't fit into this category as has been seen that the real killer is the fungal excitement during sleep, causing bats to disturb, wake, and find no energy source available so they perish. I was simply trying to say that the truth ,as I see, has no scientific equality to normal immunities as we know them. I guess i just obliterated that entire thought!
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 8, 2010 10:08 am

BrianC wrote:
John Lovaas wrote:
BrianC wrote:Points are correct, but why obliterate the obvious? It may not be an immunity to viral strains, rather an occurrence of missing another fighting agent therefore leaving the bats compromised and susceptible to the fungus.


Brian- I'm not sure what I obliterated. Our immune systems protect us(and bats) from all sort of things, including fungi.


My sincere apologies John! I was actually referring to WNS not reacting to what would be expected from a normal immunity response. Using white blood cells to determine elevated levels created for fighting the host infection. You are right in this sense. Wns doesn't fit into this category as has been seen that the real killer is the fungal excitement during sleep, causing bats to disturb, wake, and find no energy source available so they perish. I was simply trying to say that the truth ,as I see, has no scientific equality to normal immunities as we know them. I guess i just obliterated that entire thought!



Let me try this again, I felt that it was easily noticed that this was not a normal immune response, rather some other factor occurring when the infected(WNS) bats come in contact with another bat, spreading an agent compromising the bats immunity to fend off the fungus. Possibly an agent that actually kills the good bacteria on the skin, so in turn the immunity reaction would be occurring in the bacterial surface of the bat and not the bat itself.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Leitmotiv » Dec 8, 2010 1:57 pm

BrianC I think it was you who mentioned the possibility that WNS may be the result of a weakened immune system, and suggested there may be some other cause.

There is the theory that perhaps it's something in their environment, such as a chemical. The problem with this theory is revealed by following the WNS progression map. You can clearly see WNS traveling along bat migration routes. If it wasn't the fungus causing this, but a chemical, that means the chemical would be the agent traveling these routes, and the bats suffering only as a consequence. If a chemical were being used on the market, it would probably be everywhere and not starting at an initial point and spreading outward.

Because it's bats spreading it, this is suggests to me, that the fungus is the culprit. As to why European bats have immunity and American ones do not, that's another topic for discussion.

Maybe the bats have AIDS and it's lowering their immune system? eh? eh?
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 8, 2010 2:15 pm

Leitmotiv wrote:BrianC I think it was you who mentioned the possibility that WNS may be the result of a weakened immune system, and suggested there may be some other cause.

There is the theory that perhaps it's something in their environment, such as a chemical. The problem with this theory is revealed by following the WNS progression map. You can clearly see WNS traveling along bat migration routes. If it wasn't the fungus causing this, but a chemical, that means the chemical would be the agent traveling these routes, and the bats suffering only as a consequence. If a chemical were being used on the market, it would probably be everywhere and not starting at an initial point and spreading outward.

Because it's bats spreading it, this is suggests to me, that the fungus is the culprit. As to why European bats have immunity and American ones do not, that's another topic for discussion.

Maybe the bats have AIDS and it's lowering their immune system? eh? eh?


You are exactly correct in the chemical issue addressing. The reasoning is not completely logical that this could happen, unless it were a chemical or derivative that had affected the skin bacteria into a very possible mutation , (trying to cope with a chemical or reaction) and then in turn when contact with original strain, takes over and doesn't act the way of its predecessor. Therefore doesn't eat the fungus and spores contributing to WNS. This does make sense.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 8, 2010 2:17 pm

BrianC wrote:
Leitmotiv wrote:BrianC I think it was you who mentioned the possibility that WNS may be the result of a weakened immune system, and suggested there may be some other cause.

There is the theory that perhaps it's something in their environment, such as a chemical. The problem with this theory is revealed by following the WNS progression map. You can clearly see WNS traveling along bat migration routes. If it wasn't the fungus causing this, but a chemical, that means the chemical would be the agent traveling these routes, and the bats suffering only as a consequence. If a chemical were being used on the market, it would probably be everywhere and not starting at an initial point and spreading outward.

Because it's bats spreading it, this is suggests to me, that the fungus is the culprit. As to why European bats have immunity and American ones do not, that's another topic for discussion.

Maybe the bats have AIDS and it's lowering their immune system? eh? eh?


You are exactly correct in the chemical issue addressing. The reasoning is not completely logical that this could happen, unless it were a chemical or derivative that had affected the skin bacteria into a very possible mutation , (trying to cope with a chemical or reaction) and then in turn when contact with original strain, takes over and doesn't act the way of its predecessor. Therefore doesn't eat the fungus and spores contributing to WNS. This does make sense.


This could have been a number of possible mixtures that were only exactly used near and around the epicenter?
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 8, 2010 2:28 pm

Leitmotiv wrote:
Because it's bats spreading it, this is suggests to me, that the fungus is the culprit. As to why European bats have immunity and American ones do not, that's another topic for discussion.



Correct the fungus, causing irritation then awakening during hibernation, then death from starvation all appears to be that culprit. The question to learn, Why have seemingly healthy bats suddenly become infected with the fungus in the first place?
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 9, 2010 11:01 pm

"""""does anyone disagree that stopping all caving activities within the say 30 mile area of wns infected cave during all hibernation months is a reasonable idea?.....

Depends. If a cave in that 30 miles area has a significant bat colony which humans a likely to disturb - sure, it's probably best left undisturbed. Otherwise, why? Just because there's a chance some bats might appear in a different cave? Are we also going to close all attics, barns, tunnels, and other possible roosting sites?""""""""

this is a clear illustration why discussion with you is impossible...my suggestion to simply stop all caving during all hibernation months in all caves for those first few years when wns shows up......first, in your discounting the lack of importance, you immediately make it only in "significant bat colony" caves....you completely ignore the fact that a genetically gifted bat capable of surviving wns could possibly be in any cave except one with a significant colony....i am sure your retort to this will be that a bat with genetic survivability would be more likely to be in a significant colony cave.......DUH, REALLY.........each bat that could survive is important ...vitally important........you ignore and discount that in defense of unrestricted caving.....so, i am very sure you lack a scientific understanding/appreciation of the subject which you so avidly post replys about.......

then you claim a willingness to recognize actions supporting bat hibernation wns survival and immediately show you have no idea what that entails by seeming to say that bats move around between caves during hibernation!......then you start talking about we shouldln't restrict cavers disturbing small populations of hibernating bats because we couldn't stop farmers from visiting barns and attics or cars going thru tunnels.....you're a devils advocate on this issue and incapable of agreeing to such a simple logical argument as suspending all caving within 30 miles of an infected wns cave, which coincidently is the only human related activity we could effect of all you mention in discounting its importance.............

its just this simple sir, (read this more than once)...... first, the most likely infected bat population will be within close proximity of a known wns cave simply via being closer......both migration routes and infected cave gear from local cavers going into wns caves and those not infected within close proximity could be blamed........

secondly, the greater need to NOT DISTURB INFECTED populations during their first or early encounter with wns.....do i really need to explain this logic to you?.........

thirdly, caver interaction with populating bats in caves in hibernating months is very important for weakened bats survival and it is the only major control we can exert as willing supporters of no caving..........

your arguments avoid confrounting several things i bring up that are way more important than your being able to visit any cave you want that isn't closed.........i give up if you discount these points and still support caving during hibernation........
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 9, 2010 11:17 pm

BrianC wrote:
Leitmotiv wrote:
Because it's bats spreading it, this is suggests to me, that the fungus is the culprit. As to why European bats have immunity and American ones do not, that's another topic for discussion.



Correct the fungus, causing irritation then awakening during hibernation, then death from starvation all appears to be that culprit. The question to learn, Why have seemingly healthy bats suddenly become infected with the fungus in the first place?



why do people catch anything...people often seem completely healthy prior to viral or other infections....they get exposed to an agent that causes it.......fungi reproduce by spraying out millions of spores that settle and drift throughout the cave, these spores hibernate until conditions become favorable and then they awaken.....

as to the subject of european bat survivability...it is interesting....there are actually some people that think wns may have started in the states and spread to europe.......most seem to think it is a very recent introduction to europe.....perhaps only 20 years ago....

one line of thought is that wns is cyclic......it appears and wipes out enough bats to have no available hosts and then it dies out and reappears "later".....perhaps some microarchealogy needs to be done!

if the disease started in europe and is cyclic then the current wns epidemic presently confined to north america is a recent introduction and the likelyhood of genetically gifted bats capable of surviving hibernation with wns would be far fewer than those found in european caves.....

don't worry, be happy...........if all the bats in north ameica and eventually middle america and then south america are wiped completely out it will only be a short matter of time till some stowaway bats with a greater wns immunity aboard some freighter will repopulate our land.....
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 9, 2010 11:39 pm

QUOTE QUOTE......AGain, I never said "fungi doesn't spread via spores." Just because you misquote me several times, doesn't make it true.

Humans are selfish. OK, sure. I assume this includes you too? But we are also selfless. And we are proud, but humble. And generous, but thrifty. Well, I think you get the picture. We're complex beings.QUOTE QUOTE

you know, you are right you never exactly said those words "fungi doesn't spread via spores".....however, you only very very very recently said that they did.....you goggled fungi reproduction didn't you?..........millions of spores......millions.....

your comments on my comments on selfishness as a human instinctive characteristic......sir, i was pointing out humanities strongest motivating factor and you start talking about temporary actions and states that we all temporarily feel most any day.....selfishness is seen a little more often during a given day and could be the motivation behind being any behavioral type, for example thrifty or generous......depends on your motives.....

one last point geomyces destructans is the bad guy.......geomyces species that look very similar to destructans are found all over the u s of a......destructans is new......he may be new in the world.........
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 10, 2010 12:03 am

BrianC wrote:
BrianC wrote:
Leitmotiv wrote:BrianC I think it was you who mentioned the possibility that WNS may be the result of a weakened immune system, and suggested there may be some other cause.

There is the theory that perhaps it's something in their environment, such as a chemical. The problem with this theory is revealed by following the WNS progression map. You can clearly see WNS traveling along bat migration routes. If it wasn't the fungus causing this, but a chemical, that means the chemical would be the agent traveling these routes, and the bats suffering only as a consequence. If a chemical were being used on the market, it would probably be everywhere and not starting at an initial point and spreading outward.

Because it's bats spreading it, this is suggests to me, that the fungus is the culprit. As to why European bats have immunity and American ones do not, that's another topic for discussion.

Maybe the bats have AIDS and it's lowering their immune system? eh? eh?


You are exactly correct in the chemical issue addressing. The reasoning is not completely logical that this could happen, unless it were a chemical or derivative that had affected the skin bacteria into a very possible mutation , (trying to cope with a chemical or reaction) and then in turn when contact with original strain, takes over and doesn't act the way of its predecessor. Therefore doesn't eat the fungus and spores contributing to WNS. This does make sense.


This could have been a number of possible mixtures that were only exactly used near and around the epicenter?



gentlemen, if you goggle and read enuf stuff you will realize.......that bats are exposed to a spore that attaches itself to its host......this microscopic thing will begin to reproduce asexually or sexually if other spores attach in close enough proximity, point being it can reproduce without another spore being nearby..........eventually this isolated population of fungi could encounter other thriving colonies and eventually it would become visible to cavers.........the more spores that the bat is exposed to the sooner a caver could see it.........in situations where only a single spore attaches itself to any particular bat a visible colony would appear after a much longer time.....

as far as cavers not spreading wns and using migratory pathways as the only possible way.....have you ever visited a cave and then visited another cave nearby or a few miles away?.......second question.....can you prevent sickness by using wipes in public places?....third question, why decon at all?...
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby NZcaver » Dec 10, 2010 1:25 am

eyecave wrote:this is a clear illustration why discussion with you is impossible...

Snap! :laughing: I could say the same thing about your nightly barrage of slightly disjointed posts. :doh:

But seriously... since you are clearly continuing to debate with me (and others), discussion must be possible! This is good. I think you've made some sensible points about allowing bat "x" every chance to hibernate peacefully around the time of initial exposure, and maximize the effect of any natural immunity it may have. Again, I never said caving should be unrestricted. I just feel that restrictions should be backed by science, and with the recognition that good cave management is not always based solely on a one-creature habitat. If cavers choose to cease caving within a 30 mile radius of a newly-infected hibernaculum, more power to them.

Like many lay people, I know I lack some scientific understanding/appreciation of this subject. Just like you said. But that's why we have such learned folks like yourself here to enlighten the less educated (and no doubt selfish) cavers among us - right? You seem to have read a lot about spores and how virulent they are, and you're managing to articulate some interesting theories on GD transmission. Correct me if I'm wrong, but on this "do cavers spread WNS" topic you seem to be saying "yes, they are." Not just they "can" or they "might," but that it's actually happening now. And as proof you're saying that cavers obviously follow the same migration patterns as bats. GD spores are everywhere, they stick to the clothing/equipment of cavers (but only those who selectively travel to caves within bat migration patterns), and when introduced into any new cave they automatically result in full blown WNS. Correct?

That's a stretch, but it makes for a good debate. This is what discussion boards are for.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 10, 2010 11:16 am

eyecave wrote:"""""does anyone disagree that stopping all caving activities within the say 30 mile area of wns infected cave during all hibernation months is a reasonable idea?.....

Depends. If a cave in that 30 miles area has a significant bat colony which humans a likely to disturb - sure, it's probably best left undisturbed. Otherwise, why? Just because there's a chance some bats might appear in a different cave? Are we also going to close all attics, barns, tunnels, and other possible roosting sites?""""""""

this is a clear illustration why discussion with you is impossible...my suggestion to simply stop all caving during all hibernation months in all caves for those first few years when wns shows up......first, in your discounting the lack of importance, you immediately make it only in "significant bat colony" caves....you completely ignore the fact that a genetically gifted bat capable of surviving wns could possibly be in any cave except one with a significant colony....i am sure your retort to this will be that a bat with genetic survivability would be more likely to be in a significant colony cave.......DUH, REALLY.........each bat that could survive is important ...vitally important........you ignore and discount that in defense of unrestricted caving.....so, i am very sure you lack a scientific understanding/appreciation of the subject which you so avidly post replys about.......

then you claim a willingness to recognize actions supporting bat hibernation wns survival and immediately show you have no idea what that entails by seeming to say that bats move around between caves during hibernation!......then you start talking about we shouldln't restrict cavers disturbing small populations of hibernating bats because we couldn't stop farmers from visiting barns and attics or cars going thru tunnels.....you're a devils advocate on this issue and incapable of agreeing to such a simple logical argument as suspending all caving within 30 miles of an infected wns cave, which coincidently is the only human related activity we could effect of all you mention in discounting its importance.............



its just this simple sir, (read this more than once)...... first, the most likely infected bat population will be within close proximity of a known wns cave simply via being closer......both migration routes and infected cave gear from local cavers going into wns caves and those not infected within close proximity could be blamed........

secondly, the greater need to NOT DISTURB INFECTED populations during their first or early encounter with wns.....do i really need to explain this logic to you?.........

thirdly, caver interaction with populating bats in caves in hibernating months is very important for weakened bats survival and it is the only major control we can exert as willing supporters of no caving..........

your arguments avoid confrounting several things i bring up that are way more important than your being able to visit any cave you want that isn't closed.........i give up if you discount these points and still support caving during hibernation........


eyecave, your visions of wns possible spread is clear as water. unfortunately I think you are two years behind the facts. You have clouded the facts that many of the ideas you talk about, have been ongoing for years now. As I have stated before, there is not one single fact that proves staying out and away from caves make one iota of difference. To make another offer, You haven't provided evidence that humans are spreading White Nose Syndrome? Your possibilities of spread, are just that, and most have been reviewed through the last few years since most cavers have stayed away from caves, to not any proof of stopping the spread. Why?, well you see, Humans do not spread WNS. We observe what nature has allowed to happen. Why do you want to change what obviously nature has thought out and committed to? Is it really our responsibility to fix what mother nature seems to want? Could nature know something humans don't? Do humans need to play GOD?
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Re: modelling the spread of WNS

Postby JD » Dec 10, 2010 1:54 pm

I attended the Tennessee Bat Working Group meeting last month and heard a presentation on modeling the spread of WNS. The researcher used factors like the number of bats, infectivity (not the same as species susceptibility), and two bat transmission modes (short distance and longer distance.) Based on these factors, a model for the spread of WNS was created which almost perfectly explains the spread of WNS. Note, the model has NO HUMAN transmission component yet it explains the spread very well. This seems to put the lie to early speculation by USFWS and some cavers that WNS
had somehow "jumped" and that therefore humans somehow "must"be involved in its spread.

There was no "jump'. The disease's spread can be explained and modelled on the basis of bat-to-bat transmission based on distances we know bats fly.

Perhaps this and other research should be used to sharpen the discussions heard here, which are a bit out of date as well as stale.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Anonymous_Coward » Dec 10, 2010 2:31 pm

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If your posts consist of chains of sentence fragments connected by chains of dots, I WILL NEVER READ THEM. You may make the best arguments ever, but I won't know. I don't have time to try and learn a new punctuation system.

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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Phil Winkler » Dec 10, 2010 3:09 pm

In the United States, the correct notation for an ellipsis is ". . ." per Modern Language Association (MLA) standards.[citation needed] The use of ellipsis can either mislead or insult, and the reader must rely on the good intentions of the writer who uses them.[citation needed] An example of its use is "She went to … school." In this sentence, "... " might represent the word "elementary". In the 19th and early 20th centuries, ellipsis was often used when a writer intentionally omitted a specific proper noun, such as a location: "Jan was born on ... Street in Warsaw."

An ellipsis may also imply an unstated alternative indicated by context. For example, when Count Dracula says "I never drink ... wine", the implication is that he does drink something else.

In reported speech, the ellipsis is sometimes used to represent an intentional silence, perhaps indicating irritation, dismay, shock or disgust.


Res ipsa loquitor
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