Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 6, 2010 7:56 am

eyecave wrote:
...consider the facts...spores are tough, if they can survive outer space...they can survive in the mud on your boots for a very long time...........millions and millions of them are floating in the cave and lying on the ground and walls.........they cannnot be avoided by even the most careful cavers going into a cave with wns among its bats...........


This in itself, is where I base 100% of my facts. Yes, cavers move, and have moved spores since before and after WNS has been identified. I have spent more than thirty years understanding spores relation to movements around the world. Spores must have a response allowing them to open. Some require heat (fire) some humidity, water, and many require a host (in this case a susceptible bat). Only WNS infected bats (according to the known WNS distribution sites) continue to increase the spread. Why? because either the bats carry a host that the spores want or need to open, or the bats carry an infection that only spreads bat to bat, that again the spores need to open and grow. My theory (under investigation) is that bacteria that keeps the skin of bats healthy by reducing the numbers of unhealthy bacteria and fungus, is declining in numbers and therefore allowing the susceptibility of the fungus to grow. This could lead us to some of the original discussions of weather pesticides and or practices of agriculture may have lead to this condition? The spreading of aerosols from planes and farm equipment would directly affect bats as it does the insects that bats eat. Now would this practice ever come under investigation for the reality of its uncertainty? Can you imagine the monetary losses from both the chemical mfg's and legal battles? I doubt it, because cavers spread WNS? Why look anywhere else?
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 6, 2010 7:59 am

One more thing, most cavers won't care or can't imagine the realities, the rest are being bought off!
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Leitmotiv » Dec 6, 2010 11:33 am

NZcaver wrote:All very interesting. But even if it were humanly possible for "everybody" to stop caving, all indications thus far suggest it won't make a bean of difference to the spread of WNS and the resultant effect on bat populations. It's not that humans couldn't spread WNS around the US - it's just that up to now it simply ain't happening to any verifiable degree, or even to a reasonable level of suspicion. Although of course that will continue to be debated ad nauseum with migration patterns and so forth.

You're welcome to stop caving if you wish, but know that many of us are continuing to go caving responsibly. Most are avoiding bat caves and hibernation sites, diligently doing more cleaning and decon, borrowing gear in other regions, avoiding moving biota between caves, etc. In the unlikely event of science one day proving humans are a real vector for spreading actual WNS to bats (not just moving spores around), then I imagine more stringent precautions will need to be taken. But based on current evidence, if cavers were to hypothetically all hang their heads and give up caving immediately bats would be no more protected than they are now.

And if that were to happen, the worst thing is the broader cave environment potentially loses us and future generations of its most ardent protectors. Meaning the cavers who discover, survey, inventory, preserve, observe, report, recreate, and educate others not only about bats but also the myriad of other cave biology, geology, hydrology, archaeology, paleontology... etc. That would be the greatest loss of all.

All just my opinion, of course.


What you said.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 6, 2010 2:32 pm

for you information spores are how wns spreads.......you seem to believe that they are two seperate things....more evidence......in my piece i asked you to check out i admit that wns will spread and be an ecological disaster.....i also point out that if we allow evolution to work it will all work out, that is the point you seemed to completely miss...............as i said it is very frustrating to try to argue a cogent scientific point with those who are educated to a normal level and who possess normal human characteristics........

have fun caving and if most of your friends decon as they should and most avoid bat caves you will see that perhaps my ideas may have made a difference..........question.......how many spores does it take to spread wns from an infected cave to an uninfected cave?.......................
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby tncaver » Dec 6, 2010 2:43 pm

If spreading spores were the only requirement to create the disease and cavers are spreading spores everywhere, and we know that cavers have already been EVERYWHERE in the US since 2006, then why is the actual disease only showing up in a few limited areas that follow the natural migratory path of bats?
Something else is likely involved that allows the full blown disease to develop. WNS by itself is not the disease. It is a symptom.

Eyecave, I think maybe you have your eye closed.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Dec 6, 2010 2:43 pm

eyecave wrote:for you information spores are how wns spreads.....


This quote is where we have a major issue. I have facts that show that not one single cave has been infected with WNS by GD spore alone. What facts do you have that show otherwise?
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby NZcaver » Dec 6, 2010 3:15 pm

eyecave wrote:for you information spores are how wns spreads.......you seem to believe that they are two seperate things...

You seem to be employing selective reasoning here. It's not that simple. For example - GD turned up in Oklahoma, but no WNS.

i also point out that if we allow evolution to work it will all work out, that is the point you seemed to completely miss.......

Not missed at all. I agree with you on the evolution thing. One way or another, nature will take its course with WNS. But modern human visitation to caves is perfectly natural (at least for cavers), so in essence responsible caving should be no more counter-evolutionary to the cave environment than any other critter that scurries in and out of caves.

as i said it is very frustrating to try to argue a cogent scientific point with those who are educated to a normal level and who possess normal human characteristics........

I'm having trouble interpreting the statement. I apologize if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're politely trying to say you're smarter than everybody else. Or at least frustrated about arguing these points with mortals who are educated to a "normal" level (whatever that is) with "normal human characteristics." Say what?? If this is so, perhaps you'd like to share your background/education in microbiology or other related disciplines with the rest of us? Then we might at least get to know where you're coming from.

have fun caving and if most of your friends decon as they should and most avoid bat caves you will see that perhaps my ideas may have made a difference........

No offense, but unless you were the one who came up with the whole decon procedure it's not your ideas that will have made a difference.

question.......how many spores does it take to spread wns from an infected cave to an uninfected cave?.......................

Good question. To my knowledge, this has not yet been determined.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Mudduck » Dec 6, 2010 3:18 pm

eyecave wrote:how many spores does it take to spread wns from an infected cave to an uninfected cave?.......................


Number of spores equal the number of licks to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop squared.

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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby PYoungbaer » Dec 6, 2010 4:16 pm

question.......how many spores does it take to spread wns from an infected cave to an uninfected cave?.......................


We do not yet know the Multiplicity Of Infection (MOI); that is, how much Geomyces destructans it takes to infect a bat. And that's in the lab, where this fungus can be isolated.

We do know that in the field, as well as in the lab, Geomyces destructans quickly gets overwhelmed by other Geomyces species (Okoniewski).
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby wyandottecaver » Dec 6, 2010 5:32 pm

I recently did some caving (by permit) on the Hoosier NF and noted half-jokingly that the caves were so full of fungus covered raccoon scat that GD wouldn't have a chance in them. Half-jokingly...
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby ArCaver » Dec 6, 2010 7:10 pm

PYoungbaer wrote:We do know that in the field, as well as in the lab, Geomyces destructans quickly gets overwhelmed by other Geomyces species (Okoniewski).

Could you elaborate on this?
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby PYoungbaer » Dec 6, 2010 7:27 pm

Arcaver - go to the NSS WNS webpage and scroll down to the Research section. Scroll down to the Pittsburgh WNS Symposium and click on that link. This gives you all the abstracts that were presented there. Joe Okoniewski has I think three papers in there, but the one you want to read is on pages 17 and 18.

I've posted this entire abstract before in another thread and also cited and discussed this research on numerous occasions in other threads - too many times, in fact, to go find them every time. Many times people ask questions for which the answers are readily available on the website we provide for that purpose. Further, they are often provided in a context that makes them easier to understand, and saves us from needing to repeat a lot of details and context again here.

We hope that people will regularly refer to the webpage for updates, media reports, PowerPoints, videos, and more.

Okoniewski's study is just one example. The other frequently-discussed similar one is the difficulty Dr. David Blehert and his USGS lab folks have had trying to isolate the fungus from the sediment samples taken from roughly half the states in America.
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 7, 2010 12:16 am

Something else is likely involved that allows the full blown disease to develop. WNS by itself is not the disease. It is a symptom.

Eyecave, I think maybe you have your eye closed.

you may be correct, but if the dx is dose dependent it would manifest in areas of heaviest dose and perhaps bats in north america have a partially effective immune response to Gd, another factor that would lead to spread first in areas of heaviest concentration and dose......

eyecave wrote:
for you information spores are how wns spreads.....


This quote is where we have a major issue. I have facts that show that not one single cave has been infected with WNS by GD spore alone. What facts do you have that show otherwise?

my answer is a question for you, how does Gd reproduce?
****

i also point out that if we allow evolution to work it will all work out, that is the point you seemed to completely miss.......

Not missed at all. I agree with you on the evolution thing. One way or another, nature will take its course with WNS. But modern human visitation to caves is perfectly natural (at least for cavers), so in essence responsible caving should be no more counter-evolutionary to the cave environment than any other critter that scurries in and out of caves.

humans are certainly the only one of those creatures you allude to that are completely controllable.....humans are certainly the most mobile, capable of traveling from say europe to america with Gd.....you are also completely ignoring huge segments of my arguments here, mostly the issue of Gd spread via geographic skipping of large distances.......
****
have fun caving and if most of your friends decon as they should and most avoid bat caves you will see that perhaps my ideas may have made a difference........

No offense, but unless you were the one who came up with the whole decon procedure it's not your ideas that will have made a difference.

i can't see my making a claim for inventing decon.......i am making a slightly sarcastic statement about "most" deconning properly and "most" avoiding bat populated caves.....my point being "most" won't work here........its gotta be all......

i don't think a further discussion will be fruitful for you as long as your arguments revolve around denying that spores are how fungi reproduce........you are also denying indirectly that the reproductive activities of this species of fungus requires the activities of other factors...how can this argument be countered.......i restate a question i asked earlier......how do fungi reproduce?.....a degree in micro isn't required to locate the answer....

albert einstein was very uncomplimentary on the subject of human stupidity.....he even included himself in that group and, indeed, ultimately admitted that his theoretical errors on universal physics were because he "liked" one model more than the other.........
***

s i said it is very frustrating to try to argue a cogent scientific point with those who are educated to a normal level and who possess normal human characteristics........

I'm having trouble interpreting the statement. I apologize if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're politely trying to say you're smarter than everybody else. Or at least frustrated about arguing these points with mortals who are educated to a "normal" level (whatever that is) with "normal human characteristics." Say what?? If this is so, perhaps you'd like to share your background/education in mic

i am trying to make a point about evolution, its actions and ultimately its purpose...also trying to point out the extremely destructive potential of humans during this ecological disaster......your answer, "fungi don't spread via spores"..(goggle "fungi reproduction")...how can i present my points....when that answer is how you justify continued caving activity and opposition to most restrictions...."normal human characteristics"......i have spent my life studying that subject and i am absolutely convinced that the majority of human behavior is instinctively controlled.....humans have a characteristic called selfishness...they are born with it, ask any parent, your blind defense of unrestricted caving is, in my opinion completely normal for you and all of the other cavers who see wns management protocol as a permanent end to all caving instead of being an inconvenient evolutionary period of time...

i am sure that you will address select parts of my answers to you.....please answer the part about how do fungi reproduce and goggle infective dose.....
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 7, 2010 12:41 am

does anyone disagree that stopping all caving activities within the say 30 mile area of wns infected cave during all hibernation months is a reasonable idea?.......remember this fact before you answer.....if an infected bat dies the fungus colony on it dies also....

wns, how long has it been around in other parts of the world?.......
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Re: Do Cavers spread White Nose Syndrome?

Postby eyecave » Dec 7, 2010 12:53 am

i don't think a further discussion will be fruitful for you as long as your arguments revolve around denying that spores are how fungi reproduce........you are also denying indirectly that the reproductive activities of this species of fungus requires the activities of other factors...how can this argument be countered.......i restate a question i asked earlier......how do fungi reproduce?.....a degree in micro isn't required to locate the answer....

i meant to say that you are saying that multiple factors can influence the reproductive activity of anything.....how can i argue that.......however, if you find out how fungi reproduce and realize that these conditions exist in all caves pretty much....a degree in micro isn't required to locate the answer......goggle fungi reproduction....


i can't see my making a claim for inventing decon.......i am making a slightly sarcastic statement about "most" deconning properly and "most" avoiding bat populated caves.....my point being "most" won't work here........its gotta be all.....

i forgot to say that "most" was a word you used.......
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