Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

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Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby pub » Mar 10, 2010 5:17 am

Gerrit Vyn wrote:I accompanied researchers to several caves and mines in New York and Vermont during the winter of 2009 in an effort to document the situation. This piece is a result of that effort and aims to communicate the urgency of the situation to the public and policy-makers and to elicit an emotional response to a group of species that are often disregarded or disliked.
http://www.vimeo.com/5671164
Balincaguin comes from the Zambal phrase, "Bali lan caguing" meaning "house of bats."
This was the former name of the Municipality of Mabini, Pangasinan, when it was part of the Province of Zambales (of Mt. Pinatubo Volcano fame).
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby John Lovaas » Mar 10, 2010 8:35 am

From the current USFWS disinfection protocols for bat researchers-

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenose/ ... ne2009.pdf

"...For situations when gloves may hinder field work (i.e. transmitter attachment) and bats come in
contact with bare hands, apply hand sanitizer with alcohol (i.e. Purell®) after handling each bat.
Make sure it dries completely before handling the next bat."
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby ArCaver » Mar 10, 2010 8:24 pm

John Lovaas wrote:From the current USFWS disinfection protocols for bat researchers-

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenose/ ... ne2009.pdf

"...For situations when gloves may hinder field work (i.e. transmitter attachment) and bats come in
contact with bare hands, apply hand sanitizer with alcohol (i.e. Purell®) after handling each bat.
Make sure it dries completely before handling the next bat."


This is B.S. Far more sensitive work is done in this world with gloves on. If Purell is an effective disinfectant can it be used on caving gear?
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby Carl Amundson » Mar 10, 2010 8:44 pm

ArCaver wrote:
John Lovaas wrote:From the current USFWS disinfection protocols for bat researchers-

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenose/ ... ne2009.pdf

"...For situations when gloves may hinder field work (i.e. transmitter attachment) and bats come in
contact with bare hands, apply hand sanitizer with alcohol (i.e. Purell®) after handling each bat.
Make sure it dries completely before handling the next bat."


This is B.S. Far more sensitive work is done in this world with gloves on. If Purell is an effective disinfectant can it be used on caving gear?

Are you suggesting that there is a double standard here? (he says with tongue firmly planted in cheek).
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby ArCaver » Mar 10, 2010 9:09 pm

junkman wrote:
ArCaver wrote:
John Lovaas wrote:From the current USFWS disinfection protocols for bat researchers-

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenose/ ... ne2009.pdf

"...For situations when gloves may hinder field work (i.e. transmitter attachment) and bats come in
contact with bare hands, apply hand sanitizer with alcohol (i.e. Purell®) after handling each bat.
Make sure it dries completely before handling the next bat."


This is B.S. Far more sensitive work is done in this world with gloves on. If Purell is an effective disinfectant can it be used on caving gear?

Are you suggesting that there is a double standard here? (he says with tongue firmly planted in cheek).


I doubt the standards will stop at two.
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby wyandottecaver » Mar 10, 2010 9:20 pm

arcaver,

I should probably just say till you try it, don't knock it....

yes sensitive work can be done with gloves. surgeons do it all the time. Using very thin, petroleum based ones generally. Most bat researchers aren't surgeons.

In addition, in most cases their "work" doesn't have teeth or claws to actively scrabble around and snag the glove material and in most cases the "work" doesn't die from capture stress or require you to be able to use your sense of touch to minutely adjust tension and force to prevent damaging it while it actively tries to escape. A good surgeon, using a scapel every day, could probably restrain a bat in one hand without hurting it and shave a patch of hair to the skin on the wiggling pissed off bat with the other, and then attach a BB sized transmitter with glue all using gloves. As for me? I'm no surgeon, I'm a biologist. Just read about the Smithsonians debacle with the Virgina BIg Ears to see what happens when people try to do things with bats which is beyond their skill and training.

Many things we do in the field with bats are possible to do with gloves. It doesn't mean the average person can do it or even that we should try.

As I recall Alcohol is also an approved WNS disenfectant....a bit pricey for a full tub soak...but hey to each their own.
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby John Lovaas » Mar 10, 2010 9:44 pm

ArCaver wrote:This is B.S. Far more sensitive work is done in this world with gloves on. If Purell is an effective disinfectant can it be used on caving gear?


from the table on page 6 of the document previously cited-

"...What kills the Geomyces sp. fungus: ... Purell® ..."

So I guess you could clean your gear with Purell. Your call; I presume you are a health care professional or microbiologist, and so are qualifed to comment on the USFWS recommendations, and on the ability of ethyl alcohol to denature fungal spores.

I'll guess one reason health professionals wear gloves is that their skin will be in much better shape at the end of the day. You could wash with Purell- or soap and water- 50 times a day, but your knuckles might be bleeding by the end of the shift. I used to work as a motorcycle tech, and if you wash your hands enough, they bleed- and no one is impressed, especially when they take you out for dinner. A box of nitrile gloves was on next day's shopping list.
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby cavergirl » Mar 10, 2010 10:58 pm

Gloves protect the researcher, not the bat, unless you are using individually wrapped sterile surgical gloves. Whether you are wearing a glove or not makes absolutely no difference when handling multiple bats unless you either change gloves between each bat or wash the gloves with hand sanitizer or spray with alcohol. Cleaning your hands between each bat has exactly the same result.

Wearing gloves can actually lead to a false sense of security- I work in medical research and I see this all the time with new students. They put on gloves then handle all kinds of things in the lab and think because they have gloves on their hands are clean. They will open a bacterial culture fridge door and then go in another room and reach for a bottle of sterile media with the same glove on. They have to be trained to understand that the OUTSIDE of the glove is NOT clean.

With the H1N1 flu epidemic going around The hospital has had a media blitz about the importance of hand hygiene and has really stressed using hand sanitizer (purell is 62% alcohol)

This from the CDC:

The antimicrobial activity of alcohols can be attributed to their ability to denature proteins. Alcohol solutions containing 60%--95% alcohol are most effective, and higher concentrations are less potent because proteins are not denatured easily in the absence of water
Alcohols have excellent in vitro germicidal activity against gram-positive and gram-negative vegetative bacteria, including multidrug-resistant pathogens (e.g., MRSA and VRE), Mycobacterium tuberculosis, and various fungi Certain enveloped (lipophilic) viruses (e.g., herpes simplex virus, human immunodeficiency virus [HIV], influenza virus, respiratory syncytial virus, and vaccinia virus) are susceptible to alcohols when tested in vitro. Hepatitis B virus is an enveloped virus that is somewhat less susceptible but is killed by 60%--70% alcohol; hepatitis C virus also is likely killed by this percentage of alcohol.
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby Evan G » Mar 10, 2010 11:16 pm

:thanks: Cavergirl for your post, it is a good thing to keep in mind.
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby pub » Mar 11, 2010 1:00 am

Not only do gloves protect the researcher, which doesn’t seem to be the issue with WNS, but they can prevent the transmission to healthy bats whether within the same cave or between caves depending … on the diligence of their use.

OSHA wrote: First, gloves are worn to provide a protective barrier and to prevent gross contamination of the hands when touching blood, body fluids, secretions, excretions, mucous membranes, and non-intact skin; as mandated by the OSHA Bloodborne Pathogens Standard 1910.1030.

 Second, gloves are worn to reduce the likelihood that microorganisms present on the hands of personnel will be transmitted to patients during invasive or other patient-care procedures that involve touching a patient's mucous membranes and non-intact skin.

 Third, gloves are worn to reduce the likelihood that hands of personnel contaminated with microorganisms from a patient or object can transmit these microorganisms to another patient. In this situation, gloves must be changed between patient contacts and hands washed after gloves are removed.

Source: http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/hospita ... ction.html

In this video I didn’t see any photos that can be considered sensitive work or "… situations when gloves may hinder field work”
Balincaguin comes from the Zambal phrase, "Bali lan caguing" meaning "house of bats."
This was the former name of the Municipality of Mabini, Pangasinan, when it was part of the Province of Zambales (of Mt. Pinatubo Volcano fame).
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby ArCaver » Mar 11, 2010 5:53 am

wyandottecaver wrote:arcaver,

I should probably just say till you try it, don't knock it....

yes sensitive work can be done with gloves. surgeons do it all the time. Using very thin, petroleum based ones generally. Most bat researchers aren't surgeons.

In addition, in most cases their "work" doesn't have teeth or claws to actively scrabble around and snag the glove material and in most cases the "work" doesn't die from capture stress or require you to be able to use your sense of touch to minutely adjust tension and force to prevent damaging it while it actively tries to escape. A good surgeon, using a scapel every day, could probably restrain a bat in one hand without hurting it and shave a patch of hair to the skin on the wiggling pissed off bat with the other, and then attach a BB sized transmitter with glue all using gloves. As for me? I'm no surgeon, I'm a biologist. Just read about the Smithsonians debacle with the Virgina BIg Ears to see what happens when people try to do things with bats which is beyond their skill and training.

Many things we do in the field with bats are possible to do with gloves. It doesn't mean the average person can do it or even that we should try.

As I recall Alcohol is also an approved WNS disenfectant....a bit pricey for a full tub soak...but hey to each their own.


Wearing gloves while doing such work would be a learned skill. If it's not being taught at the beginner level to biology students then the problem goes all the way back to the instructors.

cavergirl wrote:Gloves protect the researcher, not the bat, unless you are using individually wrapped sterile surgical gloves. Whether you are wearing a glove or not makes absolutely no difference when handling multiple bats unless you either change gloves between each bat or wash the gloves with hand sanitizer or spray with alcohol. Cleaning your hands between each bat has exactly the same result.

Wearing gloves can actually lead to a false sense of security- I work in medical research and I see this all the time with new students. They put on gloves then handle all kinds of things in the lab and think because they have gloves on their hands are clean. They will open a bacterial culture fridge door and then go in another room and reach for a bottle of sterile media with the same glove on. They have to be trained to understand that the OUTSIDE of the glove is NOT clean.

With the H1N1 flu epidemic going around The hospital has had a media blitz about the importance of hand hygiene and has really stressed using hand sanitizer (purell is 62% alcohol)

This from the CDC:

The antimicrobial activity of alcohols can be attributed to their ability to denature proteins. Alcohol solutions containing 60%--95% alcohol are most effective, and higher concentrations are less potent because proteins are not denatured easily in the absence of water
Alcohols have excellent in vitro germicidal activity against gram-positive and gram-negative vegetative bacteria, including multidrug-resistant pathogens (e.g., MRSA and VRE), Mycobacterium tuberculosis, and various fungi Certain enveloped (lipophilic) viruses (e.g., herpes simplex virus, human immunodeficiency virus [HIV], influenza virus, respiratory syncytial virus, and vaccinia virus) are susceptible to alcohols when tested in vitro. Hepatitis B virus is an enveloped virus that is somewhat less susceptible but is killed by 60%--70% alcohol; hepatitis C virus also is likely killed by this percentage of alcohol.


Wearing gloves along with hand washing is a good way to prevent the spread of disease. It is not just for the protection of the person wearing the gloves. If that were so then doctors would put on one pair before their first surgery and just wash them in between patients.
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby cavergirl » Mar 11, 2010 9:53 am

Arcaver, the point I was trying to make was that gloves make no difference UNLESS YOU CHANGE GLOVES BETWEEN EACH BAT. otherwise, after bat #1 the glove is no cleaner than a hand. alcohol spray or purell will kill organisms whether it is applied to the outside of a contaminated glove or a hand. I am not recommending handling infected bats (any bats) without gloves. But someone suggested handcleaning with purell was BS. we use it and 70% alcohol spray all the time and it is effective.
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Re: Bats handled w/o gloves - Gerrit Vyn's video

Postby wyandottecaver » Mar 11, 2010 5:49 pm

A learned skill..... :rofl: maybe the bats will learn not to snag them with their claws and teeth too. We can open a little bat university.

Oh, wait......that would mean we would be handling bats all the time...day after day... People see a couple videos and they think bat handling is as common as picking fruit. Some people (very few) handle bats with great regularity. Most biologists AVOID handling bats when possible. Pre WNS I'd say the average state bat biologist might do it a few times a year at most. Many might not do it 3 times in a decade. Now, it has indeed become more common, but batgirls points about the whys and wherefores about gloves are still valid.
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