NSS Calls for Public/Private Partnership to Combat WNS

[Evan G]

Thank you, Peter for stepping up to the plate. The press release is well done.

I think people confuse the a press release with an academic or scientific paper which to the general public are useless. Press Releases are basically generally ambiguous with some drama and flair. Joe Shmo isn't going to care if it is a syndrome or a disease. Basically the way I read it is, "Hey we are here and ready to help", the same way my friend at the BLM also perceived it. In his words,"It about time, they should of put this out when Region 8 & 9 was closed by the Forest Service."

[PYoungbaer]

wyandottecaver,

Thank you for the metaphor. I was trying to come up with one to make the same point. Yes, deal with the pitbull - for all the reasons you state. It's not ignoring, or don't ask/don't tell; it's prioritizing.

No, this is not the NSS Policy revision.

"Hey we are here and ready to help"

Bingo! Big picture. Thank you.

TO COMBAT BAT-KILLING DISEASE

The consensus statement issued at the Science Strategy Meeting II, May 27-28, 2009, Austin, Texas, begins, "White Nose Syndrome (WNS) is a devastating disease of hibernating bats...."

[Cheryl Jones]

Good job!

Thanks Peter! Now fingers crossed for it to get picked up by the press around the country and given a large audience.

[cavercrew]

Thanks Peter.

[Batgirl]

containment between colonies *is* possible, although not certain or easy. It's called culling. you just have to do your best to make sure bats from colony A dont ever reach colony b,c, d, etc. Thats not exactly what the release was getting at I suspect, though it leaves the door open.

I wont speak for Peter, but it is reasonable to agree that human transport may be possible.

Agreeing that it is probable, or has in fact already occurred, or even that it is likely enough to warrant investigation resources is another matter. If your standing on an anthill with no visible ants while being attacked by a pitbull which threat do you address? In this analogy, we so far have been trying to stomp out the ants that *might* be there and ignoring the pit bull at our throat. The NSS statement says we need to deal with the pitbull first.

As far as doing the science...to some degree it is being done. We know that bats can get WNS from previously infected caves without infected bats being present. We know that WNS remains in soil and *might* remain viable. Hazel has apparenty cultured WNS from intentionally infected caver gear. But most studies will just tell us yes or no or maybe.

What we need is an assesment of risk. But there is the rub. At this point, are we willing to take several "clean" caves (both bat and non bat) and have people do increasing numbers of trips under different conditions from WNS caves to them and record the results? It would be a great study. But not likely to happen. You can replicate conditions to some degree in a lab, and we could do that, but until you do it out in the dirt under real conditions you wont really know.

Peter, is this release intended to also serve as the revised WNS policy Statement, or is it a seperate document?

I guess what's bothering me is that USFWS, NSS, UFS, etc are all basing their cave closure policies on the potential that humans can transmit WNS to uninfected systems, but are not willing to do the science to prove or disprove this theory. Yet all of these organizations are continuing to act as if the science has been done. This is and will continue to fuel other wacko activist organizations like CBD to get involved in this crisis. We (the NSS) need to take a firm stand on this issue one way or another. We are waffling on this. Now the NSS has come out with this press release that eludes to the potential of a human relationship; but is refusing to acknowledge it one way or another.

While I have said before and still firmly believe that the human vector theory is plausible, there are an enormous number of NSS Members that are convinced that people ARE NOT spreading it and are continuing to cave without deconing their gear (spraying with water is NOT DECON). We all know this is irresponsible, but it doesn't change how cavers are reacting and behaving to this very controversial subject, not to mention the dirty looks and shunning you get when trying to have an intelligent conversation about it. This dog needs to be put down as soon as possible. We must conduct the science. We are a scientific community - not a community of theorists! This is causing great turmoil within the society and is further splintering us during a time that we should be acting as a cohesive front. Don't we have enough problems? All the complaining by our membership of cave closures makes us look like a recreational caving club, rather than the intelligent Karst Conservation and Management society that we are.

In terms of risk assessment - What is the difference between intentionally infecting 80 healthy bats to determine whether they can still contract the disease from an infected environment and intentionally infecting a cave to determine if cavers can transmit the disease? If we don't get some answers, we can't truly protect what we have. Something tells me that if the science was done, cave closures would be immediate and permanent. At the very least, why can't the NSS, or even a group of wildlife biologists, put together a white paper on the human to bat transmission theory and circulate it through the community? Perhaps because not all scientists agree? Another reason to prove it one way or another and complete the science. We have to stop dancing around this subject and get some answers.

[Dan Henry]

I'm afraid we shouldn't ask the questions if we're not willing to hear the answers. I seems some cavers want absolute proof of the human vector, and I'm afraid if you push hard enough, someone will find this proof. Proving this, however doesn't really do anything to solve the main problem, being the bat to bat transmission, how it started and how it can be stopped. It could however provide the opponents of cave access a solid peice of evidence to use against us.

For now, it's simply prudent to acknowledge that humans *could* be a minor vector and take appropriate steps, like decontamination, to reduce the risk from human spread by cavers specifically. Sticking our heads in the sand and refusing to believe the human vector could ever be true, and thereby refusing to decontaminate, makes us look like nutcases, and we will be percieved as a liability by those who make decisions about cave closures and other management decisions.

If you're looking for the human vector to be 100% disproven, and that is the point of clamoring for proof, I think it unlikely it will prove out that way, and it may backfire on you.

[graveleye]

Obviously humans have transported it before. How do you think they got it in the lab to study it in the first place?

[BrianC]

I'm afraid we shouldn't ask the questions if we're not willing to hear the answers. I seems some cavers want absolute proof of the human vector, and I'm afraid if you push hard enough, someone will find this proof. Proving this, however doesn't really do anything to solve the main problem, being the bat to bat transmission, how it started and how it can be stopped. It could however provide the opponents of cave access a solid peice of evidence to use against us.

For now, it's simply prudent to acknowledge that humans *could* be a minor vector and take appropriate steps, like decontamination, to reduce the risk from human spread by cavers specifically. Sticking our heads in the sand and refusing to believe the human vector could ever be true, and thereby refusing to decontaminate, makes us look like nutcases, and we will be percieved as a liability by those who make decisions about cave closures and other management decisions.

If you're looking for the human vector to be 100% disproven, and that is the point of clamoring for proof, I think it unlikely it will prove out that way, and it may backfire on you.

Dan, The caves have already been closed, Why the heck do you think we are arguing this? If the caves can be closed without proof,then we will need the proof to open them back up. If we are the vector then that is what it is and we will have to deal with it. Caves will not open by themselves when they are easier to deal with closed. Can you provide a better option?

[PYoungbaer]

Obviously humans have transported it before. How do you think they got it in the lab to study it in the first place?

Bingo.

That example is proof of intentional human transmission. Happens virtually every time someone takes a tape sample of the fungus from a bat's nose. We keep it under appropriate conditions, and get it to the lab. In Dr. Blehert's case, he put some on healthy bats and they got WNS. He also put sick bats with healthy bats and the same thing happened. He also put sick bats in the same air, but not contact, and some appeared to get it. He's repeating those trials this winter.

What about unintentional human transmission? Now, it seems like I've said similar things to this over the past two years, but I'll say them again: I bet that if I crawled into Mt. Aeolus Bat Cave and rolled around on the floor, I'd get covered with fungus - maybe blooming, maybe spores, who knows. I would also bet that if I then rubbed a healthy bat on my coveralls, there's a good chance it might get WNS if kept in the appropriate temperature and humidity. Now, that's not usual caving conditions (at least not the bat rubbing part).

If I used those same coveralls - uncleaned - in a different, WNS-free cave, would I drop viable fungi or spores? Perhaps. Viability likely depends on a number of things - time, temperature, humidity, etc.

If I took my coveralls home and laundered them traditionally, would I then still have fungi or spores? Maybe, but the odds just dropped a lot as the laundering process would remove most by volume. (Note: I think we should be doing this between every cave anyway, WNS or not, out of respect for each individual cave ecosystem. Besides, clean gear is safer gear, too. I've never understood the grundgier is some badge of honor mentality. OK, at the end of the cave trip, I buy, but not the beginning).

Back to my chronology, If I also then decontaminated the coveralls after laundering, I have virtually eliminated any possibility of transmission because I've killed anything that remained.

The converse of this is that in Dr. Hazel Barton's experiments, she put fungi on pieces of cave clothing, so we knew they were there. Laundering alone didn't kill them, but deconning did.

Now, a comment about the research. Yes, there is no "proof." Nor is there likely to be any, which is a fact that we need to acknowledge and stop arguing unproductively about. Common sense is what's called for, and I think it will be better for us all. Here's why:

I find it very telling that with the various federal and state grants, the NSS' Rapid Response Fund, BCI's fund, and other small pots of money, no one has submitted a proposal to "prove" human transmission. I've had conversations with several scientists on the subject, and they say two things: what's the point? It's a reasonable assumption not worth spending the time and resources on, and universal precautions get you to the same point research would, resulting in the same level of protection - just like surgeons use in an operating room. They don't wait for proof of some new pathogen's lack of viability before taking the precautions. They take the precautions and move on.

Secondly, they say it would be very costly and time consuming. Essentially, you're attempting to prove a negative: that human CAN'T transmit it. You'd have to microscopically examine every single fabric pore to see if the fungus or spore wasn't there, and even then, all you'd have is a result for one instance. It's a bottomless pit. Frankly, with such little money available for WNS research, I don't think we'll ever see it move to the top of the priority pile.

And so, there is no black or white. But there are two things we can say: If you clean and decon, you have virtually eliminated any possibility. Absolutely? Nope, can't say that, but sheesh, you've gotten as close as possible.

Secondly, and very importantly, after three years of observation, it's apparent from the evidence that bat to bat transmission is clearly driving the spread of WNS. Doesn't mean humans haven't played a role - perhaps more so in the early stages where neither cavers nor biologists were implementing protocols that hadn't even been developed yet. But with more people paying attention and taking precautions, any human factor has been overwhelmed by the bat to bat transmission.

That's why it's terribly important for those on the geographic front line of WNS to do what they can to keep it that way. Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Virginia, Tennessee - and now your neighbors - you're where we were at in New England three years ago. I hope you all can take the long view - for the bats, for caving - and do what you can now that WNS is at your doorstep. Thanks.

[BrianC]

Peter, agreed that spores can and will spread through human contact. The issue here is cave closures because of this transmission infecting bats. This potential must be reasoned or the caves must be reopened. If the FWS would be willing to allow caving through decon then lets get it going. If not, lets get the testing underway and then we can Analise the results. It's not to difficult to see the ramifications from telling cavers that they are killing bats. As you have stated Peter, clean gear will protect cave ecosystems to some degree.The other side of the issue is, We are not in the caves right now seeing the trash and dumps that frequently occur and could be dealt with timely. People will forever be going into caves for whatever reason, with or without WNS, and we need to be there to see that the caves are properly protected. We must continue to educate the public to why protecting the caves and aquifers affects our daily lives. Closing caves gives some the feeling that since no one will be there it would not hurt to make the cave into a dumping ground. I could go on but, the necessity of knowing weather cavers are causing bats to die has got to be learned to enable what we, as environmentalists, can do to stay underground and continue the good that we do.The USFWS has made this the issue! I personally don't see stopping the spread of WNS possible from any stretch of the imagination, but If Decon is the way for us then OK, lets get going, but What about the 95% of people that will continue to go into caves that don't even consider caves a biological entity? You know, the ones that carry a Bic and a 12 pack,then spray paint their names! Kids will continue to grow and explore. This cycle won't go away and the need for education won't either. If we are not there, who will be? They will for sure, and the dumpers would have a field day! So lets get going! and if the caves are going to be closed, then we will all loose!

[driggs]

Peter, this is the most rational and straight-forward post about WNS I've read on CaveChat in many months. I urge everyone to read and re-read Peter's post and digest each point entirely. THIS is what the NSS News ought to publish, and this ought to be the NSS's no-BS message to cavers.

[Dwight Livingston]

Another very clear post from Peter, and much more supportable than the NSS call. And I believe Dan Henry's post is right on the money.

Dwight

[Ron Fulcher]

The research over whether or not a human could transport a fungus from a cave and then culture it later is the same research that gave us the antibiotic terramyacin and is more then 5 decades old. The few available dollars for research have been wasted in trying to prove just that only to come up with the same decontamination procedures decades old. What we do know is that this disease is spread by bats and the only ones who have rolled around and went touching the bats are the biologists who also refuse to slow the spread of the disease. There is only one method to slow or stop the spread of WNS, KILL WITH ALL DO HASTE THE Infected COLONIES YOU FIND! Time is running out again for this year and the bats will suffer even more for this lack of action. How do we stop the bird flu KILL THE BIRDS. How do we stop the spread of mad cow disease, KILL THE COWS.

Micheal J. Harvey said it best that one of the threats to the survival of the bats are well meaning biologists. The shame is they are also killing off cave exploration by letting the disease spread and wasting money researching the non-existent human vector for transmission.

DECON and GO ON should be the only NSS policy. Oh and WNS is spread by bats. See it does not take pages to tell the truth only a few words.

The NSS or its' members should stop harassing private property owners too. Leave the owner of Worley Cave alone.


Ron Fulcher
NSS 44706RL

[Batgirl]

Thank you Peter for providing such a well thought out, intelligent response to this complicated, controversial issue.


Something to this effect is what I was eluding to in my previous post. Perhaps something of this nature could be posted in the NSS News? This will further stress the importance of proper decon procedures to those that insist on not doing it.

[Crockett]

Didn't Michael J. Harvey include CAVERS as a threat to bats equal to biologist?

I trust the biologist (some of them cavers) who signed on to a letter addressing the "Kill the Colonies" scheme and other bad ideas:

http://batcon.org/pdfs/whitenose/WNSLetter112409.pdf