short list

[George Dasher]

I'm going to apologize right up front for this post, but...

I know there is a short list of people and agencies that we are supposed to address our anti-CBD letters to.

But I cannot find it. Can anyone provide it?

THANKS!!

[PYoungbaer]

Kenneth Salazar, Secretary of the Interior
U.S. Department of the Interior
1849 C Street N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20240

Thomas Vilsack, Secretary of Agriculture
U.S. Department of Agriculture
1400 Independence Ave. S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20250

Robert Gates, Secretary of Defense
U.S. Department of Defense
1000 Defense Pentagon
Washington, D.C. 20301-1000

Kieran Suckling
ksuckling@biologicaldiversity.org

Mollie Matteson
mmatteson@biologicaldiversity.org

[George Dasher]

THANKS!!

[graveleye]

I hate to say it, but sending stuff to the people at the CBD is probably a waste of time. Not saying you shouldn't, but they're darn sure not going to back off their stance at this juncture, if for no other reason than to save face. They're in it for the long haul, and we should be too.

If you do send them a protest or even a logical letter asking for logical answers, what you will receive back is a low quality copy-paste job that just goes around in circles and never quite addresses what you asked in the first place. I asked them two simple unpretentious questions and I received a lengthy reply of cut/paste remarks... they didn't even bother to make it the same font, text color or font size. Frankly, it was pathetic and insulting.

In short, my take on dealing with the CBD is that they cannot be reasoned with. They don't know anything other than litigation. I hate to be the first to say it, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a threat of lawsuit against even the NSS should we take a posture against their plans.

[George Dasher]

Unfortunately, Graveleye, everything you said is true, but I want to include the addresses in an article I have written for the April West Virginia Caver so that my readers may have options.

I too wrote some letters, but I saw no sense in mailing them to the CBD. As you said, their minds are made up.

And it is even more unfortunate, but yes, they may sue the NSS. It is how they operate. They really remind me of an extreme religious organization.

[tncaver]

I hate to say it, but sending stuff to the people at the CBD is probably a waste of time. Not saying you shouldn't, but they're darn sure not going to back off their stance at this juncture, if for no other reason than to save face. They're in it for the long haul, and we should be too.

In short, my take on dealing with the CBD is that they cannot be reasoned with. They don't know anything other than litigation. I hate to be the first to say it, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a threat of lawsuit against even the NSS should we take a posture against their plans.

Last I heard it is still a constitutional right to have an opinion. It is called Freedom Of Speech. If the CBD tried to sue anyone for having an opinion I think
any judge worth his/her salt would throw it out of court.

[wyandottecaver]

the lawsuit doesnt have to be valid to be effective as a deterrent or as a revenue source for settlements. Ask any ambulance chaser or enviromental activist.

[tncaver]

the lawsuit doesnt have to be valid to be effective as a deterrent or as a revenue source for settlements. Ask any ambulance chaser or enviromental activist.

If everyone lived their life fearing lawsuits little would ever be accomplished. Do you park your car and not drive because you fear a lawsuit? Do, you give up
your favorite sport because you fear a lawsuit? Do you not open a restaurant or business because you fear a lawsuit? People can sue for ridiculous reasons
but frivolous lawsuits are frequently thrown out. It is also common for people to threaten to sue and never do it. Keep in mind that when a lawsuit is carried
out, it is usually the loser who pays all court costs and attorney fees. So anyone who actually brings a lawsuit to court had darn better have the law on their
side. If the CBD is going to sue anyone, it will be the Federal government. They are the ones who ultimately decide the outcome of the CBD's petition. If the
NSS provides scientific or opinionated data to the government, that does not make the NSS liable for anything.

[graveleye]

the lawsuit doesnt have to be valid to be effective as a deterrent or as a revenue source for settlements. Ask any ambulance chaser or enviromental activist.

it would be a frivolous lawsuit in the name of propaganda and to get more spotlight. Anything to paint us out as the bad guys.

My point is that they don't have to be right. All they need to claim is that the NSS is standing in the way or subverting their cause and the burden of proof (and costs) will be on us. They're loaded, they can do anything they darn well please even if they don't stand a chance of winning.

I'm going to hush.. we're probably giving them ideas.

[graveleye]

Keep in mind that when a lawsuit is carried
out, it is usually the loser who pays all court costs and attorney fees. So anyone who actually brings a lawsuit to court had darn better have the law on their
side.

That's not entirely true. True enough the defendant can counter-sue for expenses, but it's not an automatic thing. There's been many an organization, business and individuals who have gone bankrupt defending themselves even though they won.

Anyway, we're splitting hairs. I think we can probably agree that the extent this affair could take us is unknown at this point, but it could get ugly.

[tncaver]

Keep in mind that when a lawsuit is carried
out, it is usually the loser who pays all court costs and attorney fees. So anyone who actually brings a lawsuit to court had darn better have the law on their
side.

That's not entirely true. True enough the defendant can counter-sue for expenses, but it's not an automatic thing. There's been many an organization, business and individuals who have gone bankrupt defending themselves even though they won.

Anyway, we're splitting hairs. I think we can probably agree that the extent this affair could take us is unknown at this point, but it could get ugly.

Agreed. Anyone can sue anyone for anything, yada, yada, yada. This whole situation is already ugly. But there is no basis for the NSS to be sued for anything.
Do you think the CBD is going to sue the scientists/biologists who provide facts concerning WNS? The CBD has already presented their emergency petition and it was not to the NSS. If they are going to sue anyone it will be the FEDS because it is the FEDS whom are supposed to carry out environmental laws that are on
the books. If the NSS is afraid of a lawsuit for not keeping their own caves locked up, then they should rid themselves of those caves. Locking up all caves
and throwing away the keys is not management. The CBD didn't stop me from sending the USFWS my opinion and some
factual data from the CDC (government) that clearly shows bats and WNS can move long distances without contact by cavers. As I've said before, anyone who ever wants to go caving on state or federal land should speak up now by writing the government agencies that the CBD has petitioned. I think
we already see what the NSS is going to do. They are doing it now.

[Batgirl]

Kenneth Salazar, Secretary of the Interior
U.S. Department of the Interior
1849 C Street N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20240

Thomas Vilsack, Secretary of Agriculture
U.S. Department of Agriculture
1400 Independence Ave. S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20250

Robert Gates, Secretary of Defense
U.S. Department of Defense
1000 Defense Pentagon
Washington, D.C. 20301-1000

Kieran Suckling
ksuckling@biologicaldiversity.org

Mollie Matteson
mmatteson@biologicaldiversity.org

I definitely think that sending letters to the Secretary of the Interior, Secretary of Agriculture and Secretary of Defense is of the upmost importance. As for CBD, I plan to only CC Kieran Suckling and Mollie Matteson so that they know I am engaged at the highest level. I might also CC the congressman in NY, VT, NH, MA, PA, VA and WV, along with TN, AL & GA since these states are or will be directly affected. The more our legislators hear from us, the more they will be compelled to act.

[tncaver]

I definitely think that sending letters to the Secretary of the Interior, Secretary of Agriculture and Secretary of Defense is of the upmost importance. As for CBD, I plan to only CC Kieran Suckling and Mollie Matteson so that they know I am engaged at the highest level. I might also CC the congressman in NY, VT, NH, MA, PA, VA and WV, along with TN, AL & GA since these states are or will be directly affected. The more our legislators hear from us, the more they will be compelled to act.

That's what I'm talking about. Action!

[BrianC]

I definitely think that sending letters to the Secretary of the Interior, Secretary of Agriculture and Secretary of Defense is of the upmost importance. As for CBD, I plan to only CC Kieran Suckling and Mollie Matteson so that they know I am engaged at the highest level. I might also CC the congressman in NY, VT, NH, MA, PA, VA and WV, along with TN, AL & GA since these states are or will be directly affected. The more our legislators hear from us, the more they will be compelled to act.

That's what I'm talking about. Action!

[ArCaver]

I definitely think that sending letters to the Secretary of the Interior, Secretary of Agriculture and Secretary of Defense is of the upmost importance. As for CBD, I plan to only CC Kieran Suckling and Mollie Matteson so that they know I am engaged at the highest level. I might also CC the congressman in NY, VT, NH, MA, PA, VA and WV, along with TN, AL & GA since these states are or will be directly affected. The more our legislators hear from us, the more they will be compelled to act.

That's what I'm talking about. Action!

Yeah...but where the hell are we gonna put our new headquarters?
(That's sarcasm, in case you didn't know.)