Georgia Calls WNS Meeting for Jan 21, 2010

[BrianC]

We want to work with them not against them, but at the same time they need to make decisions based on facts, not lack of facts.

I have to say that when they stated that they could only change policy when facts brought forth a reason to stop the closures, we brought up the facts, then fairly quickly some dialog was entered then the meeting was over.
The single biggest factor proving, without a doubt,cavers are not spreading WNS is,
Ellisons cave, Hardcore cavers from all over the world, including New York, have visited this cave may times in the last six years without any evidence of WNS showing up in this system. These hardcore cavers regularly cave in caves all over areas from where they are from. I can not say they haven't transmitted spores, but they haven't caused WNS. This proof cannot be disputed.
If pure conjecture can close caves, then what does it take to reverse the closures?

[tncaver]

Brian, the same can be said for Blue Spring Cave in Tennessee. Hundreds of cavers visit that cave every year and walk right past the bats that
are scattered throughout the cave. WNS has not appeared. I'm not saying it won't of course, because infected bats could spread it there eventually.
It's pretty obvious that cavers are not spreading it.

[Batgirl]

I agree with you both. I truly don't believe that we are spreading it, but the biologists think we either can or are, and without empirical evidence, we can't prove them wrong. I do understand and sympathize with the scientists in this matter, but while we are willing to meet them half way, it doesn't appear that they are. I think alot of it is just miscommunication. We need to figure out a way to build a better relationship with the people that control the goods. Perhaps we should begin developing a database of our own - showing the facts. I don't know what this would look like, perhaps you could provide some insight.

[BrianC]

Brian, the same can be said for Blue Spring Cave in Tennessee. Hundreds of cavers visit that cave every year and walk right past the bats that
are scattered throughout the cave. WNS has not appeared. I'm not saying it won't of course, because infected bats could spread it there eventually.
It's pretty obvious that cavers are not spreading it.

This is just proof that cavers are not spreading WNS, that doesn't change anything though. The USFWS has their agenda, we now need to find out what that is.

[BrianC]

Brian, the same can be said for Blue Spring Cave in Tennessee. Hundreds of cavers visit that cave every year and walk right past the bats that
are scattered throughout the cave. WNS has not appeared. I'm not saying it won't of course, because infected bats could spread it there eventually.
It's pretty obvious that cavers are not spreading it.

This is just proof that cavers are not spreading WNS, that doesn't change anything though. The USFWS has their agenda, we now need to find out what that is.

I can reiterate that the agenda is capture and control. with mounting evidence that they have no intention of using facts to create or alter policy, what else could it be?

[tncaver]

I agree with you both. I truly don't believe that we are spreading it, but the biologists think we either can or are, and without empirical evidence, we can't prove them wrong. I do understand and sympathize with the scientists in this matter, but while we are willing to meet them half way, it doesn't appear that they are. I think alot of it is just miscommunication. We need to figure out a way to build a better relationship with the people that control the goods. Perhaps we should begin developing a database of our own - showing the facts. I don't know what this would look like, perhaps you could provide some insight.

The proof is right in front of everyone's face. Ellisons, Blue Spring Cave and many other caves that have had hundreds to thousands of visits
with no infection. Quite frankly a significant database already exists. Blue Spring Cave has a register and I'm sure other
non infected caves that have had hundreds of visitors with no infection, have registers too. There is your database. Those registers could be copied
and submitted to the USFWS as proof that cavers are NOT spreading WNS. All you need to do is contact the people in charge of those registers. Contact either Bill Walter or Lonnie Carr and make a request. They are in the NSS members manual. Maybe you can get copies of the Ellison's Cave register from Allen Padget. I'm sure there are plenty of other registers in non infected caves that can also be copied and submitted as proof that cavers are not spreading WNS. There is your proof. Cave registers. Cavers from all over the country and oversees visiting caves and no infections. It is the gated caves that are visited by biologists that seem to be having the most problems. WNS has been around since at least August 2006 yet it still has not made it to Ellisons Cave. Of course it WILL make there, when infected BATS finally get that far South. How they get there is not really the issue. The fact that BATS are spreading WNS IS the issue.

[Batgirl]

That's a great idea. Gonna throw that out to TAG-NET tonight and see what kind of response I get. Also will throw it out to Dean and Bill and get their input. Putting together a "Caver Migration" database is a good place to start.

[graveleye]

However, they ARE gonna close the caves due in part to pressure from the scientific community and FWS.

What caves? Pettijohns? LOL Can't wait to see that. The state just doesn't own many Georgia caves, so fat chance of them closing much more than a handful.

[Batgirl]

Graveleye,

Pettijohns will NOT be closed. That was stated in an open public forum. Other than that, we also requested that Flowing Stone and Ellison's remain open. All other state and federal owned land will be closed.

[Batgirl]

All of the Pigeon Mountain and Fox Mountain caves will be closed: Dragfold, Cemetery, Rusty's, Anderson Springs, Ulla, Byers, etc.... Lots of good caves.

[Carl Amundson]

All of the Pigeon Mountain and Fox Mountain caves will be closed: Dragfold, Cemetery, Rusty's, Anderson Springs, Ulla, Byers, etc.... Lots of good caves.

Sad, very sad

[tncaver]

All of the Pigeon Mountain and Fox Mountain caves will be closed: Dragfold, Cemetery, Rusty's, Anderson Springs, Ulla, Byers, etc.... Lots of good caves.

That is why proof that cavers are not spreading WNS is so needed. Not only could it one day be the basis for keeping caves open, but may also
get them opened in other states. Probably a long shot though, as the powers that be seem to be a stubborn lot that aren't interested in proof.
However, this whole shooting match could some day wind up in court. Having written evidence would be of utmost important if that ever happens.

[boogercaver71]

All of the Pigeon Mountain and Fox Mountain caves will be closed: Dragfold, Cemetery, Rusty's, Anderson Springs, Ulla, Byers, etc.... Lots of good caves.

I may be called stupid, but I thought the SCCI owned the Fox Mountain Caves, not the State of Georgia

[tncaver]

All of the Pigeon Mountain and Fox Mountain caves will be closed: Dragfold, Cemetery, Rusty's, Anderson Springs, Ulla, Byers, etc.... Lots of good caves.

I may be called stupid, but I thought the SCCI owned the Fox Mountain Caves, not the State of Georgia

It seems the SCCI is following USFWS guidelines.

[Batgirl]

My bad, you are correct. SCCi owns the Fox Mountain Caves (Cemetery, Rustys, etc). For some reason, I was thinking that the state controlled some as well.