Georgia Calls WNS Meeting for Jan 21, 2010

[tncaver]

My bad, you are correct. SCCi owns the Fox Mountain Caves (Cemetery, Rustys, etc). For some reason, I was thinking that the state controlled some as well.

Good. Then hopefully the SCCI caves won't be closed. Clean caving protocol may be the only requirement for visitation. Probably any SCCI officer could
answer that question. Bill Putnam for example.

[PYoungbaer]

tncaver, et al,

Before we build up a head of steam again about proof or no proof, you should be aware of the study just presented by Joe Okoniewski, NYDEC, at the Pittsburgh WNS Symposium. I've described it at length on another forum:

http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10284&p=87994#p87994

This is now well-circulated within the management community. It does demonstrate that the potential is there, although it acknowledges that it does not show all the steps for human-borne transmission. So, we can bring spores out of an infected site unintentionally, as well as intentionally, which we already knew. It certainly speaks to the wisdom of cleaning and disinfecting, and to not using gear from WNS sites in unaffected sites.

Re: the idea of using cave registers to document caver traffic without WNS, I think that's a great idea. Similarly, look at commercial cave attendance numbers. Maybe, just maybe, the Howe Cave hypothesis is correct, but think of how many millions of other possible transmittals have gone by the wayside without occurring. While I don't believe we'll ever prove that human transmission has not happened, it clearly is not something that happens easily.

[tncaver]

Peter, as you pointed out there has been no science on the issue of how many conidia are required to make a bat sick. It was also noteworthy
that conidia were high in number in bat feces and in their little cubby holes. However the amount of conidia was low on the pack strap that came
out of the cave. Keep in mind also that pack strap had only been disinfected BEFORE it went into the infected area NOT AFTER. Therefore, if
the pack strap and other garments are disinfected AFTER a cave trip as well as BEFORE a cave trip, the number of conidia may very well be ZERO
before any other cave is entered. Avoiding hibernacula would solve all those issues, as most cavers do now.

[Batgirl]

Re: the idea of using cave registers to document caver traffic without WNS, I think that's a great idea. Similarly, look at commercial cave attendance numbers. Maybe, just maybe, the Howe Cave hypothesis is correct, but think of how many millions of other possible transmittals have gone by the wayside without occurring. While I don't believe we'll ever prove that human transmission has not happened, it clearly is not something that happens easily.

Peter, I am presenting this idea to the Hodag's to get their feedback. In talking with some folks last night, I was told that collecting data from registers will be nearly impossible as many of those registers are illegible due to moisture and the fact that some people don't sign registers. While we can certainly obtain some information from them, it won't be enough strong data to make our case. Surveys were also discussed, but surveys are not empirical, so not sure that would work either. Any other suggestions?

[NZcaver]

In talking with some folks last night, I was told that collecting data from registers will be nearly impossible as many of those registers are illegible due to moisture and the fact that some people don't sign registers. While we can certainly obtain some information from them, it won't be enough strong data to make our case. Surveys were also discussed, but surveys are not empirical, so not sure that would work either. Any other suggestions?

How about data loggers? They've already been used to track visitation in a number of caves, though not necessarily for WNS research.

[wyandottecaver]

data loggers are good for telling you when "someone" came by. Thats about it.

I should also point out that at this point we are CRAZY to be seriously considering collecting and distributing trip info to government agencies and even CRAZIER if you think its a good thing.

Science and evidence has not, is not, and will not be the deciding factor used by Federal and State agencies regarding cave access for WNS. (Virginia remains an exception) I challenge anyone to convince me that is the model they have used to date.

What that data will do is highlight high traffic caves to be prioritized for gating, private landowners to contact for closing access and tell them about caves they didn't know about to begin with.

I urge anyone considering this to STOP. Would it give useful data? yes. But to use an illustration from another thread, don't give charcoal to the pigmies trying to cook you.

As for the pack strap study. hmmm they went into a known WNS site, prepared to collect samples upon exit, and because they found spores they think this is news? Hazel had already done that. It (as they say) is not a smoking gun for transmitting WNS site to site. You have to get a viable spore to stay viable while it makes it to a viable environment where it can infect a susceptible bat. But of COURSE the USFWS has started using "the packstrap" in their guidance to states...I wonder who FUNDED that study?

its time for tough love here. The USFWS has an agenda. the CBD has an agenda. The states have whatever agenda their banker the USFWS has. OUR agenda doesn't matter to them.

The oldest caving truth is still true, if you want to ensure access to it, own it.

[PYoungbaer]

I should also point out that at this point we are CRAZY to be seriously considering collecting and distributing trip info to government agencies and even CRAZIER if you think its a good thing.

Allow me to clarify what I find good about this idea - and what isn't, in my opinion. It's the aggregate volume data that makes the simple and hopefully persuasive case. I certainly agree that naming locations, people, etc. is not wise, nor do I think it's necessary.

My point was simply that this is a way to document a large volume of activity with no negative results. The specifics don't change that basic point.

Further, making the point simply (X million show cave visitors; Y million wild cave visits) is easier for the media and the public to understand, as well - and maybe your congressperson.

[wyandottecaver]

Yes, but unless your a Senator quoting health care bailout costs you cant have volume data without having the aggregate parts that make that data. I can say 40,000 cavers went on 100,000 wild cave trips to 1,000 caves and only 2 of those caves are WNS positive. So what? do you believe me? Will Jeremy Coleman? Unless you can show the raw data of how you got those numbers how much credibility is there? Heck, we might as well just make something up that sounds good which is gonna be the suspician anyway even if we DO collect real data.

Commercial caves tend to be reluctant to share anything beyond broad visitation numbers and again...so what? Commercial caves are essentially exempt from WNS.

[driver3871]

Whats the news on lowry cave? I was wanting to take a trip out there to do a little surveying, but i would like to know if its open before I make the drive. There isnt much info on lowry, im not even sure if its been mapped?

[tncaver]

Lowery Cave is a bat hibernaculum. You need to contact some Georgia grottoes to find out if it is open. There is a grotto link on the NSS
main page.

[driver3871]

I knew it was populated by the endangered gray bat. I hope its open... would love to see them up close. Any info on whether it has been mapped or not?

[Steve Pitts]

I knew it was populated by the endangered gray bat. I hope its open... would love to see them up close. Any info on whether it has been mapped or not?

If the cave has not been surveyed, then mapping it may be a good idea. However, if there are large numbers of gray bats in the cave , I would recommend staying out of the cave for the time being. Regardless of what anyone thinks about the human WNS transmission theory, ( I am *not* an adherent to this theory , BTW) it is politically incorrect and just irresponsible to go into a cave to see gray bats right now. If you can go into areas of the cave that are remote from the bats, that might be OK. There are also plenty of caves that don't have gray bats in them that need to be surveyed.

Steve Pitts
Fern Cave Property Manager USFWS/ SCCi

[Batgirl]

If you know its populated by endangered bats, why would you want to go knowing that disturbance is a threat? I agree with Stephen. Please stay out of this cave for the time being. If the human transmission theory is true, I would hate to see it proven because of irresponsible cavers. And FYI - I believe that Lowry is privately owned and the owners are aware of WNS, so I doubt they would even give you permission.

[driver3871]

I think I mislead you guys/gals. Let me rephrase things a bit. I am by all circumstances concerned for the well being of all Chiroptera species. WNS is a serious matter and not much is known about it. That is where Chiropterology comes into play. I am by no means an "irresponsible" caver. I work as Independent for world wide Chiropterologist that collects information for research purposes that we may have a broader understanding of WNS and possibly a cure. WNS is and will continue to be a very touchy subject. With that being said, I know what the next response will be.... "Then why would you want to risk contaminating an endangered species hibernaculum"? That is where things became misunderstood and where being a "responsible" caver comes into play. My agenda was not to carry a handheld flash light, wearing denim jeans and sneakers, to wander in a cave to write me name with some flashy colored spray paint.. It is to carefully explore, examine, and collect vital information on Geomyces Destructans. I try to study more about the cave environment rather that just blindly look for a sick bat. I listen to "educated" cavers and try not to step on touchy subjects, but with out the data for research, a cure is doomed.

Lynn you are correct, Lowry is privately owned and access is strictly limited. However, I was granted access for research purposes.

BUT... I would like everyones input on how they feel about this touchy subject. I hope my work doesnt project a bad image upon me.

[John Lovaas]

Nicholas-

Yes, it might confuse some folks, in that last night you were asking whether the cave was open, and that you were interested in surveying the cave, and whether there was a map- and today, you are a researcher studying gray bats and WNS, and have permission to visit the cave.

I would certainly hope that the landowner could tell you whether there is a map of the cave or not- since you've already gotten permission from them to enter the cave. And, since you are engaged in research involving a federally endangered species, I would suspect that the USFWS folks issuing the research permit could tell you whether there is a map of the cave. I also suspect the Georgia Speleological Survey could provide you with a map, if one is on file.