Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby wyandottecaver » Aug 23, 2009 6:12 pm

that was the point of my question to Peter.

The main reason we started posting closings on the WNS page was because the USFWS was so inept at it even for Government agencies. Now it seems we have fallen into the same trap. If we have information that a cave may be closed post it. We can label that posting as rumoured, probable, or verified...but geeze, you have an email from an agency official from that field office confirming a closure and you STILL dont post it because it hasn't been officially announced...knowing full well that many of these closures will NEVER be publicly announced....

On top of that, if people give you info and you don't use it then its likely they will stop giving it to you...I guess we will have to go back to the methodology of random unorganized postings to cavechat to actually get information out to people. :doh:
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Aug 23, 2009 7:08 pm

boogercaver71 wrote:I can't find either by official announcement or on the NPS/Buffalo River(AR) web page that Fitton and all of the Buffalo River Caves have been closed, even though I know they have. I must note here that I understand this decision was made by a higher up in DC, not by the local officials :shrug:

A web management issue, surely. Here in Arkansas, we were a bit disturbed by the lack of a public announcement, but repeated checks have all been met with the information that the caves are closed and a fine schedule is to be enforced as of several weeks ago (or months ago, depending on who you talk to). I don't know if they're posting individual caves or even bothering to tell anyone except the cavers who specifically seek them out, which is a bit disturbing.
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby boogercaver71 » Aug 23, 2009 7:15 pm

Since most of the Buffalo River caves are not gated or even posted, I wonder how they are going to justifying fining anyone who strays into Park caves?
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby PYoungbaer » Aug 24, 2009 3:32 pm

wyandottecaver,

Mystery in Montana was the only such case we knew about, until reading here about Buffalo River. When folks send me stuff, I reply asap, and then do the tracking down or ask them to. I very much appreciate the assistance, as folks often have a more personal contact than I.

As far as the WNS site goes, we did the closure function when it was clear the USFWS one was neither timely, nor complete. However, we don't do rumors. Cave Chat can handle the rumors just fine.

Now, when I saw this thread about Montana, I put up the communication we had, but there is no order - and nothing written as to policy other than an e-mail. Therefore, it won't get posted on the website. I don't want to get into a position where there is not an official document that people can be held accountable to, or that people could challenge, or refer to in requesting changes to policy. It leaves the door open to people saying, yeah, they wrote the email, but it was really someone else's decision, etc. Just too vague. Not going there.

I do have an e-mail in to Buffalo River requesting any formal statement or order. Interesting, when you go through their website, and even their publication, Currents, there is almost no mention of the caves in the park. One minor mention of needing a flashlight to visit one small shelter near a waterfall, then in their junior ranger quiz, asking which is the longest cave in the park (Fitton or Beauty at 17 plus miles). But no mention whatsoever of other caves or visitation. It's almost as if they are ignoring them. I haven't read through their management plan to see if they are managing cave or bat resources, but that might be a good thing to do.
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby boogercaver71 » Aug 24, 2009 4:26 pm

Peter

I do have some knowledge of the Buffalo river area caves and the local Rangers and officials that manage them. I have seen them take a proactive approach to managing the caves in the park as far as bats are concerned. All caves I have visited that have significant bat populations have signs warning people to stay out of the cave certain times of the year, and the few caves with really big populations are gated (like Fitton) It had come thru the grapvine earlier in the spring, that the wet(bat) entrance would be closed and carving into the bat area of Fitton would be prohibited (this was expected, but the remainder of the cave would be accessible thru the dry entrance. When my son called the person in charge of issuing permits to get one for September, he was told that a higher up from D.C. had told him (permit guy) that no permits will issued anymore to the dry entrance, and that all Park caves will be off limits. My main concern was if the park service is going to start fining people they find in a cave, why not at least post this on the NPS/Buffalo River web page which is a rather simple process.
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby Evan G » Aug 24, 2009 4:50 pm

Now, when I saw this thread about Montana, I put up the communication we had, but there is no order - and nothing written as to policy other than an e-mail.


I just got off the phone with the BLM. You are correct on there was no order, it was a 60 day emergency shut down. Many at the BLM feel that the emergency shut down was jumping the gun. There most likely be an evaluation this winter on this emergency shut down.
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby YuccaPatrol » Aug 25, 2009 6:55 am

graveleye wrote:welcome to our world, Rick. It's not been seen in TAG either but the caves on gov't land in Tn are closed, and I imagine the ones in Ga and Al will be too before we know it.


The sign on the trailhead for the Sipsey WIlderness had a posted note that all caves there were closed due to WNS threat. This was on Sunday, August 23rd. I don't know if this means the Sipsey only or the Bankhead National Forest, but it is more federal land with cave closures.. ..
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby PYoungbaer » Aug 25, 2009 8:09 am

This is not new. This is part of the large closure order for all caves and mines in the US Forest Service Southern Region (Region 8). A similar order exists for Region 9 (Northeast).

http://www.fs.fed.us/r8/news/documents/ ... _Caves.pdf
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby PYoungbaer » Aug 26, 2009 5:44 pm

Buffalo National River, Arkansas, update:

I've had several communications with Chuck Bitting, geologist at the Park, who was most gracious with his information.

They are in the process of developing a closure order, but one has not yet been issued by the Superintendent. They are very cognizant of the signing and enforcement issues. They are working with USFWS, as you might expect, as sister agencies within the Department of the Interior. NPS has a conservation mission for park resources, including bats, and they actively manage these resources. They are very aware of the impact on the caving community.

In part, they are looking ahead. Virginia's southernmost WNS site is less than 20 miles from the Tennessee border, making Tennessee a "buffer" state under the USFWS Advisory. They are expecting WNS to spread into Tennessee, which would then make Arkansas a buffer state under a revised Advisory ( A "Revisory"?).

I suggested that this might be a good opportunity for the Park to get a complete baseline bat inventory in place well in advance of WNS. This is something that we did not have in the northeast as WNS exploded on the scene. The NSS just funded a Virginia project through the WNS Rapid Response Fund, which is allowing Virginia DCR - Natural Heritage Program to track bats in caves now and through the fall swarm to see how WNS progresses and where. This is an absolute "front line" research project. If Buffalo National River could do something similar as a yet unaffected area, they would have an excellent baseline database against which to track the disease.

Of course, we all hope it doesn't go there. I keep my fingers crossed that some natural barrier -temperature, humidity, species, shorter winters, available food supply - will be some geographically limiting factor, but to date there is no evidence of that.
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby ohiocaver » Aug 27, 2009 8:39 am

Your Montana WNS closing only proves cavers spread paranoia much better than they spread WNS (still not proved). And have any of the researchers found WNS on any of their clothing? After all, they're actively going after sites known with WNS and seeking it out. Is it adhering to their clothes?
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby John Lovaas » Aug 27, 2009 9:40 am

curt@curtharler.com wrote:Your Montana WNS closing only proves cavers spread paranoia much better than they spread WNS (still not proved)
.

Nope, not 'proved' yet. Of course, mycologists, bat biologists, land owners and land managers are trying to do their best, with the exceedingly limited tools they have available, to maybe- just maybe- avert a significant North American mammalian extinction event.

Or they could bow down to a very, very small group of bored white men who, apparently, cannot find anything else to do with their lives, on any given weekend, but to go into a cave in order to recreate. You make the call.

And have any of the researchers found WNS on any of their clothing? After all, they're actively going after sites known with WNS and seeking it out. Is it adhering to their clothes?


I would presume you've reviewed the contents of the NSS WNS information page, but based on your comments, that is not clear to me. The Geomyces spores do cling to clothing, and because of that, decontamination procedures have been developed. You can read about them at the WNS page.
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby Evan G » Aug 27, 2009 10:04 am

Your Montana WNS closing only proves cavers spread paranoia much better than they spread WNS (still not proved).


It was the US government > Bureau of Land Management (BLM), that shut down Mystery cave because of pressure from environmental groups. Cavers and the NSS had very little to nothing to do with it. WNS is being studied by many organizations and groups, so information is being spread in many different ways.
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby MUD » Aug 27, 2009 4:19 pm

:rofl: It truly amazes me that some of you believe cavers are going to make the bats become extinct! :rofl:
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby Rick Brinkman » Aug 29, 2009 1:36 am

WOW...haven't been able to check in for awhile...I'm a farmer and it was harvest time.

A HUGE thank you to Evan for helping explain and all the updates.

bit of a slam to those of you that chose to :hijack: the thread....but understandable.


Seemed to me that a "manager" was using WNS as an excuse to further another agenda. Just the first in the west.(at least with WNS as an excuse) I fully expect more of the same here in MT and other places.

Just wanted other cavers to be aware and vigilant.
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Re: Montana cave closed----WNS.....nobody concerned????

Postby tncaver » Aug 29, 2009 8:04 am

It's going to take more than being aware and vigilant to stop blatant cave closures of caves that don't necessarily need closing. It will require writing governors, legislators and DNR representatives to make issue about closing publicly owned caves that
taxpayers are paying for. As I've said before, some caves may need closing but most don't. And closing them ALL on government
land is blatant lack of a management plan. Hopefully, in Montana, there won't be a blatant closing of all government owned caves.
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