Closures & new rules for Buffalo National River (AR)

[Jeff Bartlett]

You know I'd buy state specific gear if it would keep my family and I caving.

Well, then I admire your budget, although I unfortunately don't share the same level of disposable income.

[SpeleoRover]

I also am both a caver and trained wildlife biologist. The issue that many folks have is not trying to save bats or spread WNS. The issue is are the decisions that the USFWS and by proxy the States making based on sound science and data or a blanket kneejerk reaction based on not understanding the resource and ease of administration? In Indiana the DNR closed its caves (except the one they make money from) then figured maybe they aught to ask cavers (since they don't know) just how many caves they actually owned anyway...nevermind which ones might or might not be a WNS risk.....

Long term...after WNS has run its course the concern becomes how do you get agencies with a long history of taking away public access, to open those resources back up?

I think that ultimately, we're on the same page. And the last statement I've clipped above is what I ultimately fear. You and I both know that as management options go, closure is the cheapest and least labor-intensive.

One man's kneejerk reaction is another's conservative measure. I'm not saying I agree with the extent of the closures. And if the Indiana DNR kept open an agency commercial cave, then by God that's shameful. Doesn't exactly surprise me though, given my experience with a couple of other state agencies.

I guess my point in this is that we're a bunch of curious skeptics by nature that are protective of our sport and the resource, and I'd hope that we can avoid getting our feathers ruffled without really examining consequences and rationale - whether we agree with it or not. As one that does cave ecology education for a job - this thing really bums me out all the way around.

[Mudduck]

You know I'd buy state specific gear if it would keep my family and I caving.

Well, then I admire your budget, although I unfortunately don't share the same level of disposable income.

You might actually be surprised that when in the midst of cavers on this forum and otherwise i and my family are typically the poor country folks. I drive a mid eighties Ford Bronco, my wife drives a Ford Focus. My house could just about fit into any cave I go to. My point is if given the choice between caving or not(during the WNS "lockdown")and it boiled down to having extra equipment for each area I cave then so be it. I'd have a yard sale or two and be done with it.

[SpeleoRover]

Nah... Jeff'll cave nekkid.

[graveleye]

THAT'S IT!!


Cave naked and there shouldn't be any problems. Just have to make sure you bath in between cave trips.

[Mudduck]

Just have to make sure you bath in between cave trips

Theres always a catch

[Jeff Bartlett]

Nah... Jeff'll cave nekkid.

No no, I'm modest. I'll wear a jock strap with a bat logo on the crotch.



PS - Mudduck, I'm not trying to call you out for being "rich" or anything, just pointing out that separate sets of gear aren't an option for many cavers, especially when you're talking about ALL gear (separate helmets, separate vertical gear, separate lights, etc). I definitely can't find fault with your priorities!

[chaz]

Well.... As per, the above mentioned rules for the BNR, I have retired and bagged a full set of vertigear, used once to bounce a pit in Tennesee! Fortunately, I Still have gear that has never been used in the WNS border states, so I can Cave on for now!
I didn't even know that pit was in Tennesee until Jeff told me! I know we camped in Alabama. Thanks Dude!

Someone needs to train a dog to sniff out WNS so I can get my gear sniffed and cleared for use!

[Teresa]

I somewhat agree with you Teresa, but might I offer a point of clarification re: other zoonotics. Hunters, anglers, and boaters didn't raise holy hell because the steps to control the most recent episodes of exotic species, diseases, etc. had a different net effect.

Chronic Wasting Disease seriously threatened deer herds, but the solution was culling. Lots of hunters didn't want to hunt anymore for fear of the disease, and state game agencies used marketing money to advocate deer eradication zones for the health of the herd at a larger scale. They didn't end hunting, they asked for increased kills. On the other hand, the commercial deer ranchers DID raise hell. They couldn't and still can't move domestic deer species. It put a hurt on lots of them.

See? They asked for positive help from the affected sport enthusiasts-- didn't tell them to go away.

Anglers and boaters and the fight against zebra mussels was a more similar issue. Fisheries agencies required boats to be sanitized by scrubbing and flooding bilge systems, hulls, motors, anchors, and anchor tethers to end transport of the exotic mussel. Sound familiar? Most anglers complied because they knew that if they didn't, it could spell disaster for their favorite fishing holes and native fishes.

One big difference here, Jason. Anglers and power boaters are under a licensing system in most states. If you are 'requested' to adhere to some protocol, and do not comply and are caught you are subject to penalty. I've argued for years for a state caving permit, similar to a fishing permit, and for the same reasons in terms of accountability. Cavers don't like it, nor do the agency people I've talked to. Granted conservation agents are already spread thin, but most anglers are never checked for a license unless they are somewhere like a trout park.

As a wildlife biologist and conservationist, I'm a bit stymied by all this. As cavers, I fail to understand why we don't comply to the Nth degree on this thing. Look at the big picture - conservative management decisions now may save our sport in the long haul. Can't tell the bats not to move, but you can tell cavers not to risk cross contamination. Nobody is really saying that caving causes WNS, and it just makes sense that a caver is a potential vector of the fungus that comes with WNS. An ounce of prevention, I say.

Well, this is where I differ. a) I have a geology/hydrology background, and the concept that caves are ONLY seen as bat habitat, and should be managed primarily as bat habitat makes no sense to me either logically or emotionally. Even if you care about critters, there is a wide variety of species in most caves. Sure, there is the guano argument, but what grows on guano? Fungus. Managing only for bats is just a human prejudice towards mammals, IMO. b) Caves are homes to a wide variety of fungii. Even if we find out all we can about Geomyces and WNS, it's unlikely we're going to be able to remediate 5000-50000 caves depending upon its extent, without negatively impacting other parts of the food chain/life web. and c) it just does NOT make sense to me that a caver is a potential vector of the fungus that comes with WNS. On what basis do you make that assertion? I've been in two caves in the affected states ever (Luray Caverns and Grand Caverns, both show caves, both on the commercial trail in street clothes and both over 10 years ago. Like most humans, I take a bath, and those clothes never got anywhere near my cave gear.) How am I a vector for WNS? Some cavers, at some times, may be potential vectors. But assuming ALL cavers are vectors and issuing blanket bans, is simply the product of an emotional reaction and fuzzy thinking.

[SpeleoRover]

One big difference here, Jason. Anglers and power boaters are under a licensing system in most states. If you are 'requested' to adhere to some protocol, and do not comply and are caught you are subject to penalty. I've argued for years for a state caving permit, similar to a fishing permit, and for the same reasons in terms of accountability. Cavers don't like it, nor do the agency people I've talked to. Granted conservation agents are already spread thin, but most anglers are never checked for a license unless they are somewhere like a trout park.

A state-granted caving permit isn't altogether a horrible idea, given the potential for curbing problems with careless caving (to a small degree) and for raising money for cave conservation and research. Applying the North American model for game management to cave management is a very interesting concept. Not sure it would fly politically, but from a hypothetical stance it could be beneficial all the way around.

Well, this is where I differ. a) I have a geology/hydrology background, and the concept that caves are ONLY seen as bat habitat, and should be managed primarily as bat habitat makes no sense to me either logically or emotionally. Even if you care about critters, there is a wide variety of species in most caves. Sure, there is the guano argument, but what grows on guano? Fungus. Managing only for bats is just a human prejudice towards mammals, IMO. b) Caves are homes to a wide variety of fungii. Even if we find out all we can about Geomyces and WNS, it's unlikely we're going to be able to remediate 5000-50000 caves depending upon its extent, without negatively impacting other parts of the food chain/life web. and c) it just does NOT make sense to me that a caver is a potential vector of the fungus that comes with WNS. On what basis do you make that assertion? I've been in two caves in the affected states ever (Luray Caverns and Grand Caverns, both show caves, both on the commercial trail in street clothes and both over 10 years ago. Like most humans, I take a bath, and those clothes never got anywhere near my cave gear.) How am I a vector for WNS? Some cavers, at some times, may be potential vectors. But assuming ALL cavers are vectors and issuing blanket bans, is simply the product of an emotional reaction and fuzzy thinking.

FIrst, let me say that I really like these back-and-forth point-counterpoint conversations. I think everyone learns something as long as they stay open minded.

I never said that I view caves as just bat habitat. I certainly do not. I'm an ecologist, and the abiotic resources are equally as important. There's still a lot of folks hung up on bats being the only influx of nutrients in a cave - which you and I both know isn't the case. They're a keystone species, though, and as such will naturally be the vehicle for management decisions.

OK, here's how I'm currently rationalizing what's going on. It is highly unlikely that WNS occurred simultaneously in all of the affected areas. It could happen, but it seems unlikely. It is more plausible that it first occurred in a spot or two and then spread, somehow, from there. Therefore, saying humans are a potential mechanism for spreading the fungus associated with WNS is pretty obvious to me. If the fungus spreads from cave to cave, then bats, raccoons, bears, phoebes, snakes, beavers, humans, and any other number of relatively mobile species has potential (not a sure thing) for spreading (not causing) the fungus or whatever it is that ultimately causes the disease. You can't tell the bats not to move around, nor can you prohibit any wildlife species from moving from cave to cave. You can, however, manage the human side. Here's where your aforementioned cave permit could have saved us organized cavers some heartache. If we're relatively certain that a unified decontamination protocol would curb potential for spreading the fungus, then putting into play a decon rule might just do the trick with a well-connected, organized contingency of cavers. However, you'll never get the casual flashlight caver to keep up with WNS, or follow such rules. Heck, I dare say that the majority of casual cavers outside of WNS states don't even know about it. So it seems that the quickest, easiest way to stop potential for human exacerbation of the phenomenon is to stop caving altogether until we have a better handle on what's going on. Should we figure out for certain that the fungus is only a proximal symptom of the disease and not the ultimate cause, then opening caves back up is the good-faith, multi-use management thing to do (I hesitate here because keeping resources closed seems common - yikes). That's my rationalization of the management decisions to date. I don't necessarily agree full bore, but I can at least rationalize it from a management perspective.

Now, with my rationalization out of the way I'd like to admit that shutting down caving altogether in an entire agncy region is a bit beyond a conservative measure and bordering on overkill. USFS district level is too local to stem any problems, but surely a state-scale closure would be a good way to go. The regional scale kills caving in states that are way outside the WNS zone.

It sure is a tricky one...

[Jeff Bartlett]

Well.... As per, the above mentioned rules for the BNR, I have retired and bagged a full set of vertigear, used once to bounce a pit in Tennesee!

Yes, in this crazy mixed-up post-WNS world, the gear you wore to yo-yo an open-air pit 5 minutes from the TN/AL border six months ago is now worthless in our home state, all $400+ of it. Can I have your rack, helmet and light?

PS: you should just burn your underwear, if they didn't have fungus before they must have some now

[NZcaver]

...the concept that caves are ONLY seen as bat habitat, and should be managed primarily as bat habitat makes no sense to me either logically or emotionally. Even if you care about critters, there is a wide variety of species in most caves. Sure, there is the guano argument, but what grows on guano? Fungus. Managing only for bats is just a human prejudice towards mammals, IMO.

Much as I feel bad for the little furry white-nosed critters right now, for me caves and caving is not all about bats. I respect them as cave occupants, and I've helped with bat-related projects many times including working on bat (or more accurately, "people") gates. But I think Teresa may be onto something with her comment about human prejudice towards mammals. For my first decade of caving, bats meant nothing to me because there are no bats in NZ caves. I realize my background biases my opinion, but even now I'm sometimes amazed at this deep love affair between many American cavers and one little flying mammal. Does that make me a bad person?

On the upside, you may have already heard that a bunch of WNS caves in the Northeast have just reopened for the summer. The Powers That Be, with a healthy dose of caver input, have wisely realized there's little sense in restricting further human access to confirmed WNS caves. They're just saying keep you gear clean, and don't wear it around the country. Kudos to common sense. Is it too much to hope this reasoning will spread at the same pace as WNS itself..?

[SpeleoRover]

That's great news!

Now... Let's keep our fingers crossed that decon rules are followed and no more WNS is found. Talk about good publicity!