Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby wyandottecaver » Apr 27, 2009 5:19 pm

a bit back on topic....

Since hewhocaves wanted this to be more work.. :big grin:

the Average Yearly Temp. map will give a decent picture of cave avg cave temps. However, remember that during Fall and Spring the 54 deg "range" is going to be a lot larger. Thus while Georgia might be above the line as a yearly average, a bat, caver, airborne spore etc. that wanders down in the fall and infects a cave of bats just entering hibernation might still be sufficient to knock out that population even if the cave conditions are not optimum.

then take the hypothetical case of a WNS uninformed caver who caves in VA WNS cave in late November, throws his not too trashed outer suit and other crap in the back of the truck, drives to Georgia and hits a nice ungated bat cave, then again tossing his gear in the back goes on over to Alabama. In a weekend, *if* people are able to carry it and *if* the fungus is actually the pathogenic agent you could have an infection below the 54 deg "line". How that infection would fare in a sub optimal cave environment who knows :shrug:
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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby cavergirl » Apr 27, 2009 6:03 pm

hewhocaves wrote:An early preliminary study by Hazel Barton suggests that the fungus's survivability quickly decreases as ambient temps increase past 54 degrees F.


in Dr. Bleherts original paper published in Science he said
Isolates were initially cultured at 3°C, grew optimally between 5°C and 10°C, but grew marginally above 15°C. The upper growth limit was about 20°C.


Translating degrees C to degrees F would give us "Isolates were initially cultured at 37°F, grew optimally between 41-50°, but grew marginally up to 70°F."
so the fungus doesn't die until 70 deg or so, but it does slow down.

So I doubt there is going to be any magic 54 degree line. more like a gradient. as the cave temperatures get warmer the fungus grows more slowly giving the bats more time to fight off the disease. remember, their body temp is close to ambient so at a warmer temp their metabolism isn't slowed down as much ,so their immune systems may be able to fight more efficiently. also as you go south, the winters are shorter, the bats have a longer time to feed and build up fat reserves which do not have to last them as long. so yes there may be a southern limit below which the bats have a better chance and the fungus has a worse chance.

all this assumes of course that the fungus is the primary pathogen.
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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby Crockett » Apr 27, 2009 7:49 pm

I have edited my previous post to indicate that you should follow the USFWS protocols. It was a mistake to try to recall them without notes.
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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby PYoungbaer » Apr 27, 2009 8:08 pm

Hi, Everyone,

Below is a message from Dr. Hazel Barton regarding her presentation this past weekend at the Kentucky WNS symposium. It is important that we not grab on to isolated snippets of information. Dr. Barton is in the middle of lab work - not the end. when she has her own conclusions based on the resistant Geomyces pannorum, they will be retested with the WNS Geomyces spp before being announced/published. This is a standard laboratory protocol - to use a non-pathogenic resistant substitute to develop and test the procedures without risk of contamination and spread. The final closeout date on her NSS grant is Dec. 31, but we all hope to have final results before then. I've asked Hazel to be part of the panel at the WNS session at the ICS/NSS convention. We hope there will be more definitive information to share at that time. Thank you all for your patience.

Peter

(From Hazel:)
All,

I believe there has been some confusion regarding my statements on the Geomyces fungus that I gave at the KAS meeting in Kentucky. The temperature range for the growth of the fungus I was discussing was the Geomyces pannorum strain, which is a common inhabitant of cave environments, and RELATED to the Geomyces species that causes WNS.

The only way we can obtain a growth temperature range for the WNS fungus itself is empirically - that is, to go and measure the temperatures of the caves in which it is found and try to determine if any temperature hypothesis is correct.

I am sorry I could not provide more definitive information, as I know folks are desperate for answers (especially as to whether their state will avoid the impending storm), but my comments were taken out of context. We know the growth pattern of Geomyces pannorum, and that may provide clues about WNS, but I did not say there was an upper growth limit.

As to spore germination versus growth. The vegetative (mycelial) form of the fungus grows at cooler temperatures. When energy become limiting or conditions unfavorable, fungi produce spores, which are resistant forms of the fungus that can withstand extremes of UV light, desiccation and heat. Often, these spores germinate following an insult, and temperature has often been showed to induce such germination in all kinds of microbial spores.

Heating your gear to induce germination and then keeping it hot in a car will NOT be an effective method of controlling the fungus - not all spores will germinate at once, temperatures can drop at night, etc. The upper temperature range to kill the spores is approaching 200 degrees Fahrenheit for 2+ hours, which is not practically approachable by folks outside of a research lab.

The only effective decontamination protocols are chemical based. Please refer to the USFWS site for the correct decontamination protocols. Any conclusive information we obtain will be communicated through either the FWS site, or the NSS WNS liaison Peter Youngbaer. Any one else who claims to speak for my research group is doing so without my permission.

Hazel

____________________________

Hazel A. Barton, Ph.D.
Ashland Endowed Professor on Integrative Science
Department of Biological Sciences
Northern Kentucky University
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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby Tiggertim » Apr 27, 2009 8:09 pm

I actually did the presentation that is being referred to and from which these premature conclusions are being drawn. Everyone needs to understand that the data we are working on is preliminary and NO conclusions will be supported until we have got the buy-in of our fellow researchers and USFWS. It's a natural reaction to run with what we have heard but we all need to approach this in a scientific manner or we'll end up making things more unclear than they are already.

Don't forget that the data that was presented was based on work with a RELATED strain to that which is assumed to cause WNS and the experiments need to be repeated so that we can be sure of the results. Until we have done more work I have no hesitation in referring you to the decontamination protocols on the USFWS site.

Everyone really needs to understand that we are working with USFWS on this and they want/need us to help them and the last thing that we need are multiple sources of information on what to do. The fact that USFWS came to the meeting and engaged with us cavers was a good sign so please let's not alienate them.

Don't panic, we can beat this thing but we need to stick together.

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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby hewhocaves » Apr 27, 2009 9:08 pm

Ah yes.. thus the reason that the first post started out saying "An early preliminary study.." Perhaps I should have added "incomplete, don't bet the farm on it, unfinished, first round, not just yet, etc.. etc.." Although I expect as the thread gets longer the number of people who read that first post goes progressively down.

Anyways, Peter, can you politely ask Hazel if she needs additional anything from the membership (besides time and patience). This is something that I'm sure we all want to see completed as quickly and comprehensively as possible. I have a feeling that she merely has to say the word and we'd scrounge up whatever she needs this side of a flux capacitor. I'd hate to think the study might have been delayed because there was some resource she needed which we might have been able to get for her.

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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby StevenSmith » Apr 28, 2009 8:40 am

This is only my opinion. Do not establish personal caving practices on my opinion. Please follow the guidelines of the NSS when making decisions about Caving.

Please pardon me while I post what's on my mind. Please note that this is only my oppinion. It is my theory based on information gleaned from various sources. I have listed references where available.

I believe it will be difficult to obtain cave temperature data. I think based on basic cave properties that It is possible to accurately create a map of cave temperatures without that information. Please read on if you will.

I don't believe that WNS will affect TAG on the scale of northern states or maybe even at all. My idea that WNS is not viable in southern caves is somewhat based on the following information:

Note 1.
“Cave temperature is usually very close to the annual average outside temperature, as the cave has entrances through which outside air penetrates. Because of the large mass of the cave rock, over time the cave temperature has equilibrated to the average outside temperature (human intervention, such as lighting or expansion/creation of entrances can upset this balance).”

Source: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/env99/env223.htm
David R. Cook
Atmospheric Research Section
Environmental Research Division
Argonne National Laboratory


A large amount of data is available that shows average above ground annual tempertures. There are quite a few maps available online.
It can be inferred from this information that a map of average outside temperatures will be very close to a map of average cave temperatures. There may be no need to obtain actual cave temperature data.

Note 2:
Geomyces sp. Fungus are part of a class of organisms known to be Psychrophiles or Cryophiles. These organisms thrive in an environment less that 15 degrees C. Or 59 degrees F. Geomyces grows well in laboratory experiments at temperatures ranging from 4 C to 15 C. Based on research at Cambridge. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=2014EEF3CF5FB3300ED12EE6531E3A60.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=2202892

Note 3:
White-Nose Syndrome was named for the visible presence of a white fungus around the muzzles, ears, and wing membranes of affected bats. Based upon what is known about typical fungal pathogens of typical mammals, this fungal growth was initially thought to be a secondary infection of bats with compromised immune systems. However, bats are anything but “typical” mammals (see below). Since then, a previously unreported species of cold-loving fungus (Geomyces sp.) has been identified as a consistent pathogen among affected animals and sites. This fungus, now widely considered to be the causal agent of WNS, thrives in the darkness, low temperatures (5-10ºC; 40-50ºF), and high levels of humidity (>90%) characteristic of bat hibernacula. Unlike typical fungi, this species of Geomyces cannot grow above 20°C (68ºF), and therefore appears to be exquisitely adapted to persist in caves and mines and to colonize the skin of hibernating bats. A consistent pattern of fungal skin penetration has been observed in over 90% of bats from the WNS-affected region that were submitted for disease investigation.

The newly identified cold-loving fungus is now thought to be the primary causative agent of White-Nose Syndrome. Available evidence suggests the fungus establishes itself in the skin tissues of bats when their body temperatures are lowered during torpor (2-10ºC; 35-50ºF).
http://www.fort.usgs.gov/WNS/

Note 4:
The following is my own belief based on the laws of conservation of energy and thermodynamics.
Common Sense Statement: Bats can not lower their body temperatures lower that the cave temperature around them. Nothing can do this without help from an exterior energy source. (Example Refrigerator)

Based on the knowlege that a bat in hybernation can not lower it's body temp lower than the cave temperature around it. Let's take Pettyjohn's cave for example. This cave has a constant temp of 58 degrees F. A bat can not lower it's body temperature inside PJ cave lower than 58 degrees. As a matter of fact, bats do not lower their body temperature to match that of the cave. It is a matter of fact that bats burn fat during their hybernation. They have to maintain a slightly higher body temperature than their surroundings in order for fat stores to be used up as heat. Based on the first law of thermodynamics and our knowlege that bats burn fat stores while in hybernation, we can deduce that their body temps are slightly higher than their surroundings. If the bat body temp was exactly the same as the cave then no heat transfer would be possible and no fat stores would be used up.

Note 5:
I overlayed two maps. The first map was a map of average annual temperatues (Simulated cave temperatures). The second map was a map of the outbreaks of WNS. The visual representation of WNS exactly followed a line of temperature between 40 to 50 degrees. This line is known as an Isotherm. An isotherm is a line that connects areas of like temperature. Many organisms follow these isotherms when migrating, mating, etc. These isotherms are believed to be comfortable to them. For example, Robins follow isotherms of about 36 to 37 degrees during migration. That's pretty precise.

Conclusion:
Geomyces sp. will not grow well above a temperature somewhere between 50 to 55 degrees F. I will estimate on the safe side and predict 54 F (As others have already said). TAG caves are on average higher temperature than caves in the north. Geomyces sp. will not grow as hardily or even not at all in TAG caves. Maybe the "Mystery disease" portion of the sickess will still prevail but not the white fungus.

This is only my opinion. Do not establish personal caving practices on my opinion. Please follow the guidelines of the NSS when making decisions about Caving.
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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby Pippin » Apr 28, 2009 10:53 am

There are hibernation caves in TAG that are much colder than most area caves. Fern Cave in Alabama, the largest gray bat hibernaculum in the country with at least 1.5 million bats, logs average winter temperatures of 40 degrees in the hibernaculum--but the rest of the cave is always a balmy 56 degrees (it's weird!). There are some caves in TAG that very effectively trap cold air, making them ideal hibernation sites. These are the caves that we should worry about WNS getting into because it would certainly thrive in caves like Fern. This is also why everyone should still be vigilant about decontaminating in TAG. If a bat that hibernates in Fern or another of these "cold trap" caves contacts WNS in another cave then brings it back to the hibernaculum that would be very, very bad.
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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby Phil Winkler » Apr 28, 2009 12:03 pm

Fern Cave in Alabama, the largest gray bat hibernaculum in the country with at least 1.5 million bats, logs average winter temperatures of 40 degrees in the hibernaculum--but the rest of the cave is always a balmy 56 degrees (it's weird!).


Jenn, I suspect the colder temp it is due to the Morgue Sink. The same phenomenon can be seen in Four Wells and other pit caves. The pit/sinks act as cold wells where colder air being heavier then warmer air sinks and warmer air rises. Typically, these cold trap caves do not have much natural ventilation.

And so, the problem just gets more complex.
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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby wyandottecaver » Apr 28, 2009 4:33 pm

Steven, A nice post.

Thermal imaging actually shows quite well that bats DO lower their temps to the same or very near the temp of their roost. Energy can be expended in many ways beyond thermal regulation and in hibernating bats its usually expended in bursts. The heat byproduct of a ultra low metabolisim is small enough as to probably not be a factor.

As others have said, portions of caves can be 5-15 deg cooler than the average. Also, some species like Indiana's seek out these cooler locations. Now that it has become clear that at least some work is being done with related strains rather than actual WNS fungus do we really know what the environmental limits are yet?

nonetheless a nice well thought out post!
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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby PYoungbaer » Apr 28, 2009 5:14 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:Steven, A nice post... a nice well thought out post!


Ditto that.
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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby StevenSmith » Apr 29, 2009 12:27 pm

I will concede that Geomyces sp. fungus can survive in some southern caves such as Fern Cave if the temperature is right. These caves are in the minority. Even if these caves are homes for large numbers of bats, the number of caves that have this cold-spot are in the minority. The fact that we are discussing possible Geomyces sp. infections in isolated cold spots in TAG lends credence to the temperature theory as a whole. (It is a stretch but maybe) It is unfortunate that so many bats are hybernating in a small number of low temp caves in TAG.

My post did nothing to address the root cause of this disease or the origin of the same. I do not know enough about the cause to speak on it. Few if any have any idea as to what is causing this problem. I have spoken with others who have plausible cases for the sickness of the bats but I will let them have their own voice.
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Re: Spores and The 54 degree Fahrenheit line

Postby Spike » Apr 30, 2009 5:12 pm

Steven,

For a study on Hibernating bats and thier prefered hiberating temperature I would read through

Temperature Data Logging in Missouri Bat Caves

http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sit ... 20temp.pdf

and some of the referenced material.

It is true that minorities of the caves are cold air trap caves, but these are the caves used by the species affected by WNS. The idea of WNS stopping at a 54 degree ambient temp line just doesn't work. If you want to see the possible range of WNS one only has to look at the range of the affected bats. Caves that are too warm for WNS, so to speak, are not habitat for the bat species of concern. If anything the bats are more limited than the fungus.

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