Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

This is a forum intended only for discussion of White Nose Syndrome.

Moderator: Moderators

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby Batgirl » Apr 12, 2009 1:34 am

The last sentence of this post sounds very unfair, although I doubt it was meant to. I care deeply about the outcome and spread of this disease as do most if not all cavers. I also care about the integrity of the gear that I use. As long as decon only requires washing with detergent and water, something I've been doing long before this outbreak, then I have no problem. But when "experts" admit they are guessing about proper procedures, and those procedures are probably destructive, then I reserve the right to disagree. In the first paragraph you ask if decon is important. The correct answer is, "Maybe!" We still do not know if the fungus is the killer or if it is can it kill without something else being present.


My statement was not meant to be derogatory or disrespectful to anyone, so my apologies. I am simply asking my fellow cavers to use their common sense when decontamination their gear. Whether you use bleach or not is up to you. However, PMI's official statement on the use of bleach is that "a mixture of 1 part household bleach (with active ingredient of Sodium hypochlorite at 5.25% concentration) with 9 parts room temperature tap water and a 10min or less exposure time, immediately followed by a thorough rinse of room temperature water will not cause any appreciable harm to nylon or polyester ropes.*

So the argument that bleach causes irreparable damage to ropes and gear is simply not true. Even if you don't follow the recommendation by PMI, utilizing your common sense in thoroughly cleaning your gear in between cave trips is a good start - but taking no action at all is simply irresponsible. There was a post on TAG-NET tonight from Lin Guy that states "Larry Matthews summed up WNS and the suggested response perfectly. It is a desperate attempt to get us to do something that will result in nothing. The trouble is we'll have to do it in order to later avoid blame and being ostracized for being part, if not the cause, of the problem. I whole heartedly agree with this statement. The problem with people and government is being reactive rather than proactive.

I do understand that you, as well as many other cavers around the country, deeply care about the spread of this disease and will take whatever action necessary to stem its spread just as I will. There is still so much to learn about WNS and whether it, or something else, is the pathogen. However, I strongly feel that until we understand the breadth and cause of this disease we should do all we can to follow the procedures of the NSS, USFWS, Cave Conservancies, BCI, etc.

As far as the moratorium goes, if it's imposed in Arkansas I'll honor it. No problem there. My big issues with this whole C.F. is that professionals were still handling infected bats bare handed as recently as two months ago and some probably still do, yet they are calling for us to follow decon procedures after being in caves that do not even have bats. They still have no idea what is killing bats but they want to close all caves whether bats are present or not. Little browns and Indiana bats both form nursery colonies beneath loose bark yet I've not heard a call to close the forests to hikers, bikers, horse riders and hunters. Are cavers more likely to affect the bats than other groups? Yep. But only in bat caves. Does that mean that the others have zero responsibility. Nope. Whatever it is could be coming into the caves with the bats from the great outdoors.


I agree with your frustrations that the finger pointing seems to be at the cavers and not pointed at all the other entities who could also be suspect. This is where educating the public at large about this disease should be our highest priority as professionals. If the bat biologists are being irresponsible by handling bats without proper protection, then we should stand up hold them accountable as well. This might be a better question for Peter Yongbear to answer. As far as the moratorium on caving even if those caves don't have bats, I can say that in my experience, every cave (horizontal and vertical) that I have been in in TAG has bats, even if it is just one or two. Even some of the more sacrificial/commercial caves, such as Tumbling Rock or Mammoth Cave has a few bats. It is therefore still possible to spread this disease. It should also be noted that WNS is not likely to show up again until next the hibernation season and therefore we will not know the extent of its spread into TAG until then. So we must work together to do all we can.

I admire your concern and I suspect if more cavers cared as much as you do then some mistakes from the past could have been avoided. I also worry that you may unknowingly expose yourself and others to danger by using the wrong disinfectants on your gear. Some lysols contain phenols that can damage synthetics. Remember too that any antibacterial is designed to destroy life and many have the potential to harm humans if used improperly. If you don't rinse the lysol from your gear you may be destroying native microbial communities in the cave with your decon procedures. I also was taught that heat is an enemy of nylon but I don't know if domestic water heaters, normally set around 130F-180F are warm enough to cause damage.


I appreciate your kind words and also appreciate that you care about this horrible affliction as well. I deeply love our bat communities and respect their importance to our eco-systems. If the bats continue to die, there will be major consequences to humans. Without bats to eat the insects, they will destroy our crops resulting in higher food prices and most certainly we will see an increase in bird flu, which will result in a higher number of human deaths. I understand your hesitancy's in using lysol products and I agree that a secondary rinse after its use is warranted.

:bat sticker:
Batgirl
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Apr 9, 2009 9:29 am
Name: Lynn Buffkin
NSS #: 60464
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Sewanee Mountain Grotto
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby wyandottecaver » Apr 12, 2009 8:26 am

*raises hand*

the information is elsewhere in this thread but people refuse to read so I will simplify it.

PMI DOES NOT SAY BLEACH IS OK FOR WNS DECON. THEY IN FACT SAY THE OPPOSITE. PMI says cleaning your ropes *ONCE* with a bleach solution will probably not degrade the rope enough to kill you. Using a bleach solution more than once on your rope is specifically discouraged by PMI because it gradually destroys rope and thus eventually it will kill you if you happen to be hanging on it. You may not BELIEVE the bridge out sign... but that doesn't mean you can still drive across the river safely.
I'm not scared of the dark, it's the things IN the dark that make me nervous. :)
User avatar
wyandottecaver
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2902
Joined: Aug 24, 2007 8:44 pm
Location: Indiana
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby ek » Apr 12, 2009 9:02 am

wyandottecaver wrote:the information is elsewhere in this thread but people refuse to read so I will simplify it.

Well that's an understatement. This thread is ABOUT that piece of information, and it is stickied so that everybody will see that information, and yet that information is still ignored in posts made in this thread!
Eliah Kagan
NSS 57892
Syracuse University Outing Club

Fund vital White Nose Syndrome research--donate to the NSS and select the WNS Rapid Response Fund.
Facebook users can also donate here.
User avatar
ek
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1040
Joined: Apr 3, 2007 2:45 am
Location: Syracuse, NY
Name: Eliah Kagan
NSS #: 57892
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Syracuse University Outing Club
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby Bill Putnam » Apr 12, 2009 10:00 am

ek wrote:Well that's an understatement. This thread is ABOUT that piece of information, and it is stickied so that everybody will see that information, and yet that information is still ignored in posts made in this thread!


"I want to believe." - Fox Mulder.
Bill Putnam, NSS 21117 RL/FE
Chairman and Chief Troublemaker
The Revolutionary Hodag Party - Thinking outside the cave.

The jackal can roar,
pretending to be a lion.
The lion is not fooled.
User avatar
Bill Putnam
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 5:23 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
NSS #: 21117
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Revolutionary Hodag Party
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby Batgirl » Apr 12, 2009 10:58 am

wyandottecaver wrote:PMI DOES NOT SAY BLEACH IS OK FOR WNS DECON. THEY IN FACT SAY THE OPPOSITE. PMI says cleaning your ropes *ONCE* with a bleach solution will probably not degrade the rope enough to kill you. Using a bleach solution more than once on your rope is specifically discouraged by PMI because it gradually destroys rope and thus eventually it will kill you if you happen to be hanging on it. You may not BELIEVE the bridge out sign... but that doesn't mean you can still drive across the river safely.


Actually PMI does state that "a single disinfection using the recommended method will not cause appreciable harm to nyln or polyester ropes". I am not ignoring anything that PMI has stated regarding the use of bleach. I NEVER suggested using Bleach repeatedly. if you will look back, my original post suggested a one time decontamination procedure using the the recommended 9:1 bleach ratio followed by a thorough cleansing with soap and hot water. That is all I am suggesting! If we utilize this method (on a one-time basis) and then continue to thoroughly clean and scrub our gear after every trip, then we are doing our part to try to reduce the spread of WNS.

It is also my understanding that the NSS is working with PMI and other manufacturers to test various decontamination procedures on rope and gear. I guess we will just have to wait and see what the results are from that testing.

:bat sticker:
Batgirl
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Apr 9, 2009 9:29 am
Name: Lynn Buffkin
NSS #: 60464
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Sewanee Mountain Grotto
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby wyandottecaver » Apr 12, 2009 3:30 pm

Sorry for the confusion...you might see why....

batgirl wrote...

"...I am simply asking my fellow cavers to use their common sense when decontamination their gear. Whether you use bleach or not is up to you. However, PMI's official statement on the use of bleach is that "a mixture of 1 part household bleach (with active ingredient of Sodium hypochlorite at 5.25% concentration) with 9 parts room temperature tap water and a 10min or less exposure time, immediately followed by a thorough rinse of room temperature water will not cause any appreciable harm to nylon or polyester ropes.*
So the argument that bleach causes irreparable damage to ropes and gear is simply not true...."

PMI wrote....

"...The situation with WNS introduces the concept of frequent decontamination, a situation that has not previously been common. With this in mind PMI would like to take this opportunity to remind cavers and other rope users that bleaching a rope does weaken the fiber structure, and repeated bleaching will weaken the fiber structure even more.Specifically, although PMI’s testing suggests that a single disinfection using the recommended method will not cause appreciable harm to nylon or polyester ropes, if this process is repeated multiple times the damage will inevitably become appreciable, and this damage is not necessarily detectable through visual inspection.
Therefore, at this time PMI does NOT recommend using the above method to repeatedly disinfect ropes."
I'm not scared of the dark, it's the things IN the dark that make me nervous. :)
User avatar
wyandottecaver
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2902
Joined: Aug 24, 2007 8:44 pm
Location: Indiana
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby Batgirl » Apr 13, 2009 9:02 am

No worries. It seems we both agree. :kewl:
Batgirl
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 302
Joined: Apr 9, 2009 9:29 am
Name: Lynn Buffkin
NSS #: 60464
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Sewanee Mountain Grotto
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby caveflower » Apr 13, 2009 5:30 pm

:shrug: :question:
Caving is fun but people are always more important.
User avatar
caveflower
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Dec 29, 2007 2:29 pm
Location: Indiana
Name: Brenda
NSS #: 59462
Primary Grotto Affiliation: IKC EIG ISS NSS
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby Chads93GT » Apr 19, 2009 11:49 am

Not sure I see the sense in bleaching your rope even one time, if you can't do it a 2nd time. So you can use your rope TWICE before having to buy a new one? Afterall, when its new its not infected. Use it, it gets infected so you bleach it.......now its clean again..........but you can only use it 1 more time in a wns cave before you gotta pitch it? Whats the point?
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2294
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Definitive Post on WNS Decontamination with 10% bleach

Postby Bill Putnam » Apr 20, 2009 12:19 am

Eliah et al.:

You guys are so hung up on the technicalities you are confusing people even more, every time you post. Go have a beer and let me handle this.
:beer30:

Here it is in plain English:

It is safe to use the bleach method as directed by the manufacturer one time for decontamination of pathogens on ropes and gear. You will not die if you do this correctly according to the manufacturer's instructions. The manufacturer has tested this. However, the manufacturers generally make no representations that this method will actually be effective against WNS-related Geomyces spores, or any other specific pathogen. It may or may not work against WNS-related fungal spores. Someone else tested that, but the tests are being repeated and refined. We should know more in a month or so. Don't panic.

However, if you use the bleach method of decontamination over and over, indefinitely, there will eventually be cumulative and substantial degradation of the strength and safety of nylon rope and gear. But no one in the industry is willing to say how may times you can do it safely before you should stop, or how much the loss is each time, or anything like that. Nor should you expect them to any time soon. Think about it.

Is your gear still safe if you beach-treated it once? Yes. Twice? Almost certainly. How about 10 times? Probably, but who knows? 100 times? I would not count on it. 1000 times? Not for my money, but whose gear lasts that long anyway?

Your results may vary according to your ability to follow simple instructions.

But don't take my word for it, or Eliah's, or Todd's, or anyone's on the Internet. Call or write your specific manufacturer and ask them yourself. Do your own homework and stop looking on Cavechat and the Internet for easy answers, you lazy bastards. And don't panic.
:big grin:

Bill

p.s. Please stop wasting my electrons asking and arguing about this: you are contributing to global warming.
Bill Putnam, NSS 21117 RL/FE
Chairman and Chief Troublemaker
The Revolutionary Hodag Party - Thinking outside the cave.

The jackal can roar,
pretending to be a lion.
The lion is not fooled.
User avatar
Bill Putnam
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 5:23 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
NSS #: 21117
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Revolutionary Hodag Party
  

Re: Definitive Post on WNS Decontamination with 10% bleach

Postby NZcaver » Apr 20, 2009 1:24 am

Bill Putnam wrote:Do your own homework and stop looking on Cavechat and the Internet for easy answers, you lazy bastards.

That's GREAT!! I should steal that and use it for a signature line! :clap:

p.s. Please stop wasting my electrons asking and arguing about this: you are contributing to global warming.

Probably true, but some people have been emitting a lot of hot air themselves recently... :egyptian: :laughing:
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6367
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby Chads93GT » Apr 20, 2009 8:46 am

Yeah confusing is an understatement. Thanks Bill for the clarification.
User avatar
Chads93GT
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 2294
Joined: Jun 24, 2008 1:27 pm
Location: Missouri
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby ek » Apr 20, 2009 10:12 am

Bill Putnam wrote:But don't take my word for it, or Eliah's, or Todd's, or anyone's on the Internet. Call or write your specific manufacturer and ask them yourself. Do your own homework and stop looking on Cavechat and the Internet for easy answers, you lazy bastards. And don't panic.

I think, at least for PMI products, that taking the manufacturer's word for it that they've published on the Internet, on their website, in a statement specifically about WNS decontamination, is OK. I don't think that by posting PMI's official statement on the issue, I am encouraging people to trust secondary sources. I also don't think that by referring people to their official statement I am in any way overcomplicating things.

In terms of being hung up on technicalities and confusing to people, what technicalities are you referring to? The technicality that we don't actually know that 10% chlorine bleach works against WNS fungus impregnated in caving gear (even if the fungus is the infectious agent)? Or the technicality that just because it's safe for single use on nylon and polyester, it's not necessarily safe for use on other materials? Or the technicality you kindly restate here, that just because it's safe for single use, that doesn't make it safe for repeated use?

The posts you made in the "A time for action - WNS and personal accountability" threads contained the highest density of misinformation about WNS decontamination that I have ever seen, anywhere. So I went, step by step, and pointed out the misinformation. You then edited your earlier posts for accuracy without leaving any record of what you had originally said, and replied sarcastically as though the matters I were bringing up were trivial. In the same reply, you insulted me personally, which you must (or should) have known would likely distract people's attention--including my own--away from the topic of WNS decontamination. And now you're saying that people like me are the ones creating confusion...
Eliah Kagan
NSS 57892
Syracuse University Outing Club

Fund vital White Nose Syndrome research--donate to the NSS and select the WNS Rapid Response Fund.
Facebook users can also donate here.
User avatar
ek
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1040
Joined: Apr 3, 2007 2:45 am
Location: Syracuse, NY
Name: Eliah Kagan
NSS #: 57892
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Syracuse University Outing Club
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby Bill Putnam » Apr 20, 2009 10:49 am

Dude, You are seriously out of kilter. You have got to get a girlfriend( or boyfriend, or whatever - anything to take your mind off this stuff for just a little while before you snap!)
:big grin: :wink:
Bill Putnam, NSS 21117 RL/FE
Chairman and Chief Troublemaker
The Revolutionary Hodag Party - Thinking outside the cave.

The jackal can roar,
pretending to be a lion.
The lion is not fooled.
User avatar
Bill Putnam
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 5:23 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
NSS #: 21117
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Revolutionary Hodag Party
  

Re: Official PMI Statement on 10% Bleach: NOT FOR WNS DECON

Postby Bill Putnam » Apr 20, 2009 10:57 am

[At least one forum reader has objected to this post as condescending and insincere. My apology to Eliah is heartfelt and sincere. My attempt at being lighthearted may have been ineffective and inappropriate. I have offered a no-frills apology in a later post. I have edited this post to remove what I believe may be the objectionable parts. Let me know if I need to change anything else to make it tasteful and appropriate. I don't know what else to do.]

ek wrote:The posts you made in the "A time for action - WNS and personal accountability" threads contained the highest density of misinformation about WNS decontamination that I have ever seen, anywhere. So I went, step by step, and pointed out the misinformation. You then edited your earlier posts for accuracy without leaving any record of what you had originally said, and replied sarcastically as though the matters I were bringing up were trivial. In the same reply, you insulted me personally, which you must (or should) have known would likely distract people's attention--including my own--away from the topic of WNS decontamination. And now you're saying that people like me are the ones creating confusion...


Eliah,

I have obviously hurt your feelings. I am sorry. I did not mean to do that. Jansen was right and I dialed back my comments and edits. They were over the top. I was trying to be funny and to get you to lighten up. I did not do a good job at that. My bad.

I thought I had marked my edits and acknowledged the errors, but send me a PM if I missed any and I will go back and fix them. You quoted the points you disagreed with in your responses, so they are still available despite my edits. Sorry for the faux pas - my bad, again.

You're a nice kid, and wickedly smart. If I my offer you one piece of advice from an old, bold, caver: try not to take yourself too seriously. Life is too short for that.

My point was that continued insistence on fine detail is obscuring the big picture for Lynn and others who are new to this and have not delved into it to the extent that you have. Step back and summarize the big picture for them, instead of overloading them with information. It has been my experience that people listen and remember ideas better if we use that approach.

Bill

p.s. Let's get together and have a beer or something in Indiana.
Ground rules: No talk of WNS or speleo-politics.
:beer30:
Last edited by Bill Putnam on Apr 20, 2009 3:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bill Putnam, NSS 21117 RL/FE
Chairman and Chief Troublemaker
The Revolutionary Hodag Party - Thinking outside the cave.

The jackal can roar,
pretending to be a lion.
The lion is not fooled.
User avatar
Bill Putnam
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sep 5, 2005 5:23 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
NSS #: 21117
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Revolutionary Hodag Party
  

PreviousNext

Return to White Nose Syndrome (WNS)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron