A time for action - WNS and personal accountability

[ron_miller]

Bill,

I certainly applaud you for launching this thread, and for strongly encouraging cavers to decontaminate their gear. However, I found your initial comments to be misleading, and was concerned that they could easily lead cavers to a false sense of security. For example, I disagree that decontamination allows cavers to "be certain that we do not contribute to the spread of WNS", or to "have the satisfaction of knowing that you have done what you can to help curb the spread of WNS", as you stated in your original post.

While decontamination is absolutely far preferable to continuing to cave with dirty gear, I'm sure we can both agree that there remains much that is unknown about the cause and spread of WNS. We already know that at least one "approved, safe and effective" decontamination method from last year (PureGreen24) has since been determined to be completely ineffective at killing the WNS-associated fungus (in fact, the fungus apparently finds PG24 quite tasty!). Also, while evidence is certainly building that the Geomyces sp. fungus is the causative agent of WNS, scientific consensus on this has certainly not been achieved. If the Fish and Wildlife Service biologists thought that decontamination was indeed the most appropriate solution, why didn't they just ask cavers to thoroughly decontaminate their gear, rather than issuing a fairly drastic request to voluntarily stop caving entirely in a 17-state region, and when caving outside this area, to only use gear that has not been used in one of those states within the past year? And if we are certain that the currently approved decontamination methods are completely effective, why are we wasting money having Dr. Hazel Barton actually do scientific research to determine the actual efficacy of these and other methods on caving gear and clothing?

I also find it unfortunate that you believe that I have "clouded" this thread in any way - it was you who titled this thread "WNS and personal accountability". I believe that my post is 100% on point on this topic. I also found it fascinating that you dismissed "abstinence" based on the fact that it is impractical to ever achieve; the exact same argument could be used to dismiss your recommendation of decontamination. Certainly the vast majority of those who visit potentially affected caves will never decontaminate their gear; nevertheless, you clearly feel that it's an idea worth promoting. I completely agree; I just happen to also believe that following the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Cave Advisory requests is worth promoting as well, even though in all practicality, lots of cavers will not follow their requests.

While I recognize the snark inherent in one of your responses (as the "Great White Snark", your prowess is legendary!), my post was certainly not intended to win friends. As to the "influence people" part, I'll let others judge that; I have no expectation of influencing people whose minds are already closed (not saying that includes you, by the way!). That said, I stand by my statement that some cavers are being unbelievably selfish on this issue, by using the lack of "scientific proof" as a rationale for continuing their favored recreational pursuit in complete disregard for the potential serious ramifications to entire species of bats. If that's not selfish, I don't know what is.

While I've personally decided to hang up my own TAG caving hat for the time being, I'm not trying to tell anyone else they must quit caving, even in the WNS-affected or adjacent states. What I am trying to say, perhaps imperfectly, is that it is indeed a personal accountability decision that each caver must make for themselves, based on where conservation lies in their own priorities and values. To me, the potential risk/benefit ratio of continuing to cave in this region currently far outweighs that of suspending my TAG caving.

To sum up, from a personal accountability standpoint, if you want to do reduce your potential for contributing to the spread of WNS, decontaminating your gear is preferable to not doing so. By the same logic, following the requests outlined in the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Cave Advisory is even better.

Cheers,

Ron

P.S. Staying up till 3 AM discussing these issues with you outside in the cool Chattanooga air last night certainly did no good for my cold. I've blown my nose so many times today I have my own version of white-nose syndrome going on!

[Bill Putnam]

To sum up, from a personal accountability standpoint, if you want to do reduce your potential for contributing to the spread of WNS, decontaminating your gear is preferable to not doing so. By the same logic, following the requests outlined in the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Cave Advisory is even better.

That is, in essence, the entire content, meaning, and intent of my posts to this thread on this subject.

Not everyone will practice abstinence, and it cannot be enforced.

Not everyone will decontaminate, and it cannot be enforced.

Not everyone will wash their gear, and it cannot be enforced.

Not everyone will bathe, and it cannot be enforced, no matter how much it may be needed, unless it is by a mom enforcing bathtime on a 4 year-old.

So why not try to make decontamination and cleaning less scary and less mysterious, and more fiendly and accessible? Why not be nice about it and encourage people, assuming that they all want to do the right thing, but just need some more information and some reassurance and polite positive encouragement? And once people accept that, why not go on to the next setp and encourage them to follow the other requests (not directives) as well? Why call them names and judge them to be selfish or stubborn? Are we trying to shame them into compliance? How's that working out so far?

Perhaps we can indeed catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
We'll see.

I was trying to create a honey thread. You are making vinegar posts.

[NZcaver]

Wow, nice post, Eliah.

Clearly I was not very clear, and I should have been. I was not talking about repeat methods for people to do after every trip. I was talking about one-time decontamination for post-exposure prophylaxis. But you are correct that I did not make that clear, and that I was rather imprecise in some of my comments. Do they have humor on your planet?

Bill,

I agree that's a great post from Eliah. I don't recall how precise or imprecise the wording was in your original (unedited) post, but it gave me the distinct impression you were advocating repeated chemical cleaning of vertical gear. I also got the impression that you were making a serious post rather than a "do they have humor on your planet" kind of post.

Now, would you mind pointing to the place where I said to repeatedly apply the 10% bleach method, or any particular method, for that matter? I can't find it at the moment.

No kidding. Now that you extensively edited your original post, we'll never know how some of us misunderstood what you were saying.

p.s. Do you have a girlfriend? If not, you might want to look into that. Really.

I know some of us who know Eliah love to rip on him - and I'm sure he can take it - but... there's really no call for editing your previous posts and adding little snipes everywhere in BOLD BLOCK CAPITALS. It's obvious Eliah been putting some major time and effort into this whole issue. HUGE kudos to him. And kudos to many others who consistently go above and beyond. Including you, Bill.

There - did I spread enough love around?

[Bill Putnam]

Well, I can tone down the block caps. I did that to make it easy to see what I added, and I got kind of carried away. Eliah is a good guy and wicked smart, and I agree with most of what he said. I'm sure he really does have a great sense of humor. I just haven't seen it yet (just kidding, couldn't help myself).

He was right that I was not clear, and my original posts could easily be construed to be advocating repeated bleach disinfection, which was not my intent.

By the way, I did not delete or change anything - at least not intentionally - except to add the bold comments and snarky comments. It you will excuse me now, I have to go call Cindy, my Snarkaholics Anonymous sponsor.

[Bill Putnam]

OK OK. But it was a lot of work getting rid of the block caps and toning down the snark quotient. But my
SA sponsor will be happy.

There - did I spread enough love around?

Gee, I'm feeling all warm and tingly inside.

Damn. I did it again.