Cave advisory Q&A

[Anonymous_Coward]

Unfortunately, I doubt that the researchers and WMA folks really care to put a stop to the rumor-mill that is happening now in the press because it doesn't suit their needs to do so.

On the contrary, based on the comments I've seen on this board, most of them are quite content to let cavers take the blame. This sort of shut-down is exactly what some of them have been hoping for. The quotes are right here on this forum if there is any need to dig them up.

It would at least be nice if the media would say that WNS is possibly being spread by cavers AND biologists that handle and count bats.

I know how you feel graveleye. I have spent most of my adult life trying to be respectful of bat habitat and teaching others about the little critters. Now, due to mass-media ignorance, lack of any back-up from the bio-community, and no positive PR on the part of the NSS we will be looked at as complicit in the deaths of millions of bats. How's that for irony?

Caver involvement in this crisis is still speculative. Some people say that WNS leapfrogging to WV and VA is proof of human transmission, others say it isn't. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Too bad we have been convicted in the court of public opinion before all the facts have even come in.

I see that I have cross-posted with SDcaver. I agree with everything he said. Working together with these folks is what I have been advocating for for months. Instead, we get the blame game. These CYA reactions are as infuriating as they are impotent.

[hewhocaves]

I think, long term, the real rift will be between caver and biologist. Not necessarily bat biologist, but any biologist. I also think that in future years cavers will be more likely to purchase cave entrances (or have cave conservancies of which they are members purchase entrances) and not be so willing to let them get managed by outside entities. People who move to cave areas will be more likely to buy caves with entrances on them, even if it means a lesser property overall.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. Having cavers as a whole be more involved in management than use gives us a lot more clout. There is still a lot of pull for individual property rights in this country. On the other hand, there are a lot more caves than cavers.

I think we'll see a resurgence in secrecy. I think there will be a trend away from any sort of electronic dissemination of cave descriptions or locations because of the ease in which it gets into the hands of the "wrong" kind of people. That's also a good and bad thing - it's good because it implies an investment in time and energy on the person seeking entry. Its bad because it limits knowledge to the scientific community. Of course, it can be very cogently argued that the scientific community (i.e. the biologists) have done the caving community a disservice in the past few months. They are, after all, riding our coat-tails in terms of accessibility and basic geographic data.

I have no doubts that the NSS and most (if not all) grottoes will survive. I also have no doubts that we'll lose between a third and a half of our membership. (more WNS statistics ) That doesn't count the prospective members who never joined because there was no actual caving. But we're heading into a serious downturn. The NSS of the future will be a more cozy, intimate gathering. And that's not necessarily bad for those of us who stick it out. Its that kind of environment that the NSS was founded on!

[Teresa]

I think, long term, the real rift will be between caver and biologist. Not necessarily bat biologist, but any biologist.

So, are we going to conduct a raid on the Biology Section? It wasn't true at one point, but most cave biologists these days are cavers.

I think we'll see a resurgence in secrecy. I think there will be a trend away from any sort of electronic dissemination of cave descriptions or locations because of the ease in which it gets into the hands of the "wrong" kind of people.

And just who is the "wrong" kind of people? I don't feel empowered to make that judgment. On the contrary, unless someone takes down Google Earth, takes away GPS receivers and similar software, cavers can talk to no one, not even themselves, and the "wrong" kind of people will still find the caves.

The NSS of the future will be a more cozy, intimate gathering. And that's not necessarily bad for those of us who stick it out. It's that kind of environment that the NSS was founded on!

This would not be a good thing for the caves, or cavers, IMO. Inbreeding breeds contempt. A small, elite band could never have the impact on karst issues that a larger one does. And cavers don't have the market cornered on karst issues, either.

[hewhocaves]

Hi Teresa! how are ya?

So, are we going to conduct a raid on the Biology Section? It wasn't true at one point, but most cave biologists these days are cavers.

counter-raid, actually. We've already been raided. See previous posts by others.

And just who is the "wrong" kind of people? I don't feel empowered to make that judgment. On the contrary, unless someone takes down Google Earth, takes away GPS receivers and similar software, cavers can talk to no one, not even themselves, and the "wrong" kind of people will still find the caves.

Ayup. Especially on the last point. There's a serious danger of cavers becoming very very provincial. Think Arizona times 50.

This would not be a good thing for the caves, or cavers, IMO. Inbreeding breeds contempt. A small, elite band could never have the impact on karst issues that a larger one does. And cavers don't have the market cornered on karst issues, either.

I never said "elite", I said "intimate". Nor did I suggest that it was good for karst science as a whole. Quite to the contrary - that post was a "doom and gloom" post.

On the other hand, numbers themselves aren't necessarily inherently good. I've never heard of a mob stopping to rescue a kitten from a tree. But they are very likely to hang someone from said tree. Maybe if they were in the same tree....

Anyway, it's all going to be higgeldy-piggeldy for quite some time and any projections about what the world will be like are about as reliable as weather forecasts for two weeks in the future. But we've got a lot of free time on our hands suddenly, so the least we can do is amuse ourselves. I'm thinking of taking up the piano.