WNS Decontamination Procedures

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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Scott McCrea » Jul 6, 2012 4:59 pm

Crockett wrote:
PYoungbaer wrote:The second column (under Lysol IC) gives examples: goggles, rubber boots, etc. I'd include rubber gloves, waterproof cave packs, and the like.


Since when is a waterproof cave pack classified as personal protection safety equipment?

Actually, Swaygo packs have served as safety equipment many times. Most often for floatation when swimming. Also as splints, litters and Bruce White used one as an airbag when he fell on his back in Great Ex. If everyone had two or three Swaygo packs, caving safety could improve. :tonguecheek:
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Crockett » Jul 6, 2012 7:21 pm

Peter,

The document references material safety data sheets (MSDS) extensively. Each MSDS lists personal protective equipment (PPE) required. I don't think that is a coincidence. None of the MSDS for the products named in the document lists caving gear of any kind as PPE. Non-porous personal protective safety equipment is not caving gear. Row two does not apply to caving gear.

Obviously I don't think I am being too literal and I don't agree with you. If you scroll back up you can count this as the fourth time I have asked or suggested that you seek an opinion on this issue. I can certainly do that myself but you are the liaison. This makes a big difference in field application. Row two takes away everything but Lysol IC (and hot water) so if a piece of caving gear falls into that category the options are very limited.

I am responsible for certified compliance with the decon protocols in relatively large volume and critical environments. The details are important.

And Scott you know I love me some Swaygo packs and have used and abused them for years. They should be listed as PPE on the MSDS of life.

*edited to spell SWAYGO correctly
Last edited by Crockett on Jul 9, 2012 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby PYoungbaer » Jul 6, 2012 9:48 pm

Crockett,

Before you even asked I had already communicated with both USFWS and Hazel Barton, who is the researcher behind the protocols, along with her colleagues and folks at the Southern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study. There is no list. I have read the entire study, which is currently in press. There is nothing in there that has anything to do with these changes in language.

All of us. including USFWS, are frustrated with the sudden injection of another federal agency and their legal folks into the protocols. Nothing changed in terms of the functional effectiveness of the techniques, but USFWS is constrained by another agency's legal assertions from recommending off-label use.

The previous version of the protocols told us all what worked and on what materials to effectively disinfect against the fungus Geomyces destructans. The new version of the protocols only covers the legal asses of government agencies who differed on whether killing the fungus was cleaning or "killing a pest," and thus a "pesticide." It's a labeling issue and legal liability issue from the manufacturer's and regulatory agency's perspective.

Blame the lawyers for this; there was no additional study since the long-awaited revisions were reviewed and approved by the WNS National Plan working group on decon and issued in March.

I'm also very familiar with MSDS forms, having written Vermont's Community Right to Know law as a Vermont legislator in the 1980's. Yes, each chemical with an MSDS will mention appropriate personal protective gear so that employees working with such materials, or firefighters dealing with buildings containing them can protect themselves. However, that's not the purpose of this chart, which is to guide people cleaning cave or research gear, which is why I said you were reading it too literally. The purpose of the chart revisions are to let us know that using certain of these substances on porous materials is "off label" according to the legal beagles.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby wyandottecaver » Jul 7, 2012 9:28 am

From a practical case all of this is moot. We know it, and all but a few in USFWS know it. Its just another agency game now.
How important is decon? How much do the agencies believe in it?

Not very dang much in my experiance. I have been involved with 2 permits for 2 different federal entities that *required* decon. We did it because we said we would not because we believed in it. But the Agencies didn't much care either. Did anyone check our gear (or even seem interested) beforehand? nope. Did anyone check or ask if we deconned after? nope. Did anyone mention decon at all beyond the "getting permission" stage? nope. In fact, beyond being aware there was a protocol, I'm not sure our latest contact even knew what it was.

In a well known missing person search case where scores of people from multiple states entered dozens of Indiana DNR caves over more than a month, was decon even a consideration? Nope.

This is something high on our radar, and the USFWS brass has to act interested since its their rule. Not sure the folks in the weeds give a darn either way.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Crockett » Jul 9, 2012 10:26 am

In the harsh light of Monday morning it all makes more sense. Also I finally printed out the document rather than trying to read it from an iPad browser. Thanks for the guidance Peter. I found the link in the first footnote that leads back to a page that includes more guidance for cavers. I see ways to make this work in practical application. Using hot water for most things makes it a lot easier when hot water is available. The SWAYGO packs will get a hot bath. They are also good for carrying water.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby PYoungbaer » Jul 9, 2012 11:15 am

Crockett,

Bingo! Clearly, the hot water treatment (20 minutes @> 50 degrees C - submerged) is optimum, when available. No chemicals, and no off-label uses.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby peter febb » Apr 12, 2013 12:31 pm

Chlorine Dioxide: Safe on nylon ropes for disinfection?

http://www.clordisys.com/MythOfCorrosion.pdf

http://www.kimberly.uidaho.edu/potatoes/BUL0825.pdf(active against Fusarium)

http://www.grandcircuitinc.com/sites/default/files/Howard%20Alliger%20-%20An%20Overall%20View%20Cl02.pdf(
The textile industry applies ClO2 ..., where prevention of injury to the fibers is important. Both cellulosic and synthetic materials are processed in this way, including cottons, acetates, rayons, polyesters, acrylics and nylons. Cotton is not degraded because the oxidation reaction is highly selective toward lignin and hemicellulose components of the fiber. ClO2 does not adversely effect old paper prints or drawings, and will clean ancient documents without injury to fibers.
)

I have been making and using Chlorine Dioxide in the lab for several years as an air deodorant and bench disinfectant. (The gas must be scrubbed free of excess chlorine before using)...I believe it should be tested on nylon ropes as a possible agent for the neutralization of Geomyces destructans.--pf
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby buddyh » Mar 6, 2016 8:58 pm

Hey Cavers,
Based on what I have been reading not a lot has changed but it seams that there are no videos, so I put this together. Tell me how to make it better and I will.
It is on youtube [YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2zDTiTF5zQ[/YouTube]
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