WNS Decontamination Procedures

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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Bill Putnam » Jun 4, 2009 5:02 pm

kmstill wrote:Although I'm a huge advocate of "evidence based medicine (EBM)" (policy, whatever....), when we're lacking compelling data we still have to make a decision. One example for all the proof purists would be this: that, due to lack of sufficient randomized clinical trials, we (based on EBM) cannot prove that jumping out of a plane without a parachute is adverse to one's health. If we're going to apply the same hard-line to this example that several on this board have been applying to decon, then none of us are positioned to advise against unprotected plane jumps.

But hey, that's not going to stop anybody on Cavechat from doing it, or from bashing the people who do!
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Carl Amundson » Jun 5, 2009 9:07 am

I don't want this to get "lost in the sauce":

The USFW has come out with their "final" decontamination procedures:
http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenose/FINALContainmentandDecontaminationProceduresforCaversJune2009.pdf
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jun 5, 2009 1:34 pm

junkman wrote:I don't want this to get "lost in the sauce":

The USFW has come out with their "final" decontamination procedures:
http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenose/FINALContainmentandDecontaminationProceduresforCaversJune2009.pdf


uh, yeah here's my favorite part of this thing:
"For ropes and harnesses – This equipment should be dedicated to one cave or not used at all."

:shock:
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby NZcaver » Jun 5, 2009 2:31 pm

xcathodex wrote:uh, yeah here's my favorite part of this thing:
"For ropes and harnesses – This equipment should be dedicated to one cave or not used at all."

I wonder who the genius is that came up with that? :doh:

I guess we'd better hurry up and connect all the caves in North America, eh? :shhh:
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Cheryl Jones » Jun 5, 2009 4:04 pm

"For ropes and harnesses – This equipment should be .... or not used at all."

Time for alternatives!

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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Bill Putnam » Jun 5, 2009 5:12 pm

Pretty soon there won't be any caving in America, or at least, none to speak of.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby tncaver » Jun 5, 2009 7:10 pm

Bill Putnam wrote:Pretty soon there won't be any caving in America, or at least, none to speak of.


Not on Federal land anyway. Thank God the Feds don't own everything. But they think they do, and they will try to own it or
control it if they can, to get their way. Idiots. ALL caves do not need to be closed (MHO). Bat caves should be for now though. Geez. I'm just caving in my area only and I will NOT use bleach on any of my vertical gear.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Carl Amundson » Jun 5, 2009 7:36 pm

Bill Putnam wrote:Pretty soon there won't be any caving in America, or at least, none to speak of.

There will always be caving in America.
It will just go underground (he says with tongue firmly planted in cheek...) :big grin:
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Teresa » Jun 5, 2009 8:54 pm

Oh, come on folks. Just think of the fun we can have in Kerrvile, chasing each other around with Lysol and Formula 409 spray bottles! Just wait until the Cave Wenches get hold of this news.

We've already got a new wonderful pick up line for the hot tub and sauna..."Ya wanna get decontaminated?"
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby NZcaver » Jun 5, 2009 10:47 pm

You guys do know that many caves in the northeast (WNS Ground Zero) are now open during the summer for recreational caving, right? :question:

Skepticism in response to over-zealous and under-informed federal guidelines? Imagine that! However the feds aren't always the only ones to blame. If living in many different states has taught me anything, it's that state and local regulations are often more ridiculous, petty and narrow-minded than federal ones. North and south, east coast to west. I suspect some WNS states will not only take the federal guidelines at face value, but may also feel they should constantly 'one-up' the feds by imposing even greater local restrictions on caving - even if they lack sound scientific reasoning. It's just a wild-guess theory. I hope I'm wrong. :shock:
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby shibumi » Jun 9, 2009 1:01 pm

NZcaver wrote:You guys do know that many caves in the northeast (WNS Ground Zero) are now open during the summer for recreational caving, right? :question:

Skepticism in response to over-zealous and under-informed federal guidelines? Imagine that! However the feds aren't always the only ones to blame. If living in many different states has taught me anything, it's that state and local regulations are often more ridiculous, petty and narrow-minded than federal ones. North and south, east coast to west. I suspect some WNS states will not only take the federal guidelines at face value, but may also feel they should constantly 'one-up' the feds by imposing even greater local restrictions on caving - even if they lack sound scientific reasoning. It's just a wild-guess theory. I hope I'm wrong. :shock:


Um. No. I've been in conversation with the deputy director for the DNR for Indiana (yesterday) and that's exactly
the stance they are taking. They will be trying to convince private landowners to close their caves as well.

Fortunately, since most of the caves are in the rural southern part of the state where distrust of bureaucrats and
politicians from Indianapolis runs very high, they're going to get a pretty small compliance rate.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Carl Amundson » Jun 9, 2009 1:40 pm

I'm assuming we should use the USFW "final" decontamination procedure to clean our stuff before we get to the NCRC Weeklong this year:

http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenose/FINALContainmentandDecontaminationProceduresforCaversJune2009.pdf
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jun 9, 2009 2:27 pm

junkman wrote:I'm assuming we should use the USFW "final" decontamination procedure to clean our stuff before we get to the NCRC Weeklong this year:
http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenose/FINALContainmentandDecontaminationProceduresforCaversJune2009.pdf


If you were to actually follow these procedures -- "Ropes and harnesses: This equipment should be dedicated to one cave or not used at all." -- then you couldn't use your stuff at NCRC unless you (a) only used your existing gear above-ground or (b) purchased all-new ropes and harnesses for the in-cave portions of the training. Presumably, with option (b), they would then need to be abandoned in Indiana since they are to be "dedicated" to the one particular cave they were used in.

:bananabat:
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Carl Amundson » Jun 9, 2009 2:38 pm

xcathodex wrote:
junkman wrote:I'm assuming we should use the USFW "final" decontamination procedure to clean our stuff before we get to the NCRC Weeklong this year:
http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenose/FINALContainmentandDecontaminationProceduresforCaversJune2009.pdf


If you were to actually follow these procedures -- "Ropes and harnesses: This equipment should be dedicated to one cave or not used at all." -- then you couldn't use your stuff at NCRC unless you (a) only used your existing gear above-ground or (b) purchased all-new ropes and harnesses for the in-cave portions of the training. Presumably, with option (b), they would then need to be abandoned in Indiana since they are to be "dedicated" to the one particular cave they were used in.

:bananabat:

Thanks, but I'm really waiting for the NCRC folks to respond to this.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Jeff Bartlett » Jun 9, 2009 2:54 pm

junkman wrote:Thanks, but I'm really waiting for the NCRC folks to respond to this.

Well, I hope they tell you what you want to hear.
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