WNS Decontamination Procedures

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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby juselton » Apr 24, 2009 6:49 am

(dryer @ 49'C) "heating actually caused the spores to germinate MUCH more quickly."

This "bad" news may actually be "good" news. From the previous information it seems that initial data showed that the actual fungus was vulnerable to temperature changes, disinfectants, sunlight, etc. If the spores can be encouraged to go from an inactive to an active state by using dryer heat, couldn't this be a first step to decon?

I know...we have to wait for more results before we form conclusions.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby cavergirl » Apr 24, 2009 2:12 pm

PYoungbaer wrote:Personally, I still pre-clean my coveralls, then put them in the washer on hot. A few minutes into the cycle, when the machine has filled, I add the 10% bleach solution. The wash cycle is sufficiently long to disinfect. I set the machine for added rinse cycle. I dry in the drier or in the sun, depending on weather. The point here is that the use of bleach and heat are in combination. Nothing so far says this doesn't work. Nothing in Hazel's comment suggests not using hot water


A lot of the confusion on decon issues comes from USF&W's own website which does not seem to agree with what is sometimes reported on cave chat even by Peter, Hazel et al.

referring to the flow chart half way down the page http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenosemessage.html
no where does it say to use bleach on clothing.

the left hand arrow points to a box that says wash clothing in a washing machine in the hottest water with conventional detergents. then dry

the middle box says for equipment that cannot be submersed use disinfectants such as alcohol or bleach.

the right hand box says for equipment that can be submersed use bleach or quarternary ammonium products.

if these are the protocols we are supposed to follow, I don't really see why ropes, which are, like clothing, made of nylon can't be washed in hot water in a washing machine with detergent just like clothes.

If these protocols are incorrect then why aren't they either updated or removed from the F&W website? :shrug:
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby karstmd » Apr 25, 2009 11:00 am

"If these protocols are incorrect then why aren't they either updated or removed from the F&W website?"
Because the USF&W cannot keep up...is the polite answer. It is tough to be polite about them and I'd really rather not. Expect updates as history, but do pay attention as I do to those that actually are up on current info, like Peter. If F&W would actually listen to experts they'd not be in this fix.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby PYoungbaer » Apr 28, 2009 5:20 pm

A request - a number of caving events have been held this spring - and more on the way. Several people have mentioned decontamination stations. I'd really like to hear about and see what folks have come up with and how people thought they worked. Any descriptions/designs/photos would be appreciated. Please post here as I'm sure others would be happy not to have to reinvent the wheel. Thank you.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Teresa » May 31, 2009 10:24 pm

Any idea when the soil sample research will issue results?

I've never wild caved in any WNS location, with the sole exception being a tourist trip on trail in Luray Caverns in 2001. I've never ridden in a car or caved with anyone who did. I was at the Maine convention 2002, but did no caving.

Seem silly for me to do decon. Just in case? Case of what?
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby ek » Jun 2, 2009 10:31 pm

There are areas where we know there's WNS. And there are areas where we have not yet found WNS. Since WNS may take some time to appear in an area once it spreads there, there are no caves in the United States--except those that can be known for sure not to harbor any bats--that are known to be free of WNS. (Caves not harboring bats could conceivably have the fungus, say if it is present in soil, but they could not have the syndrome.) There are areas that are believed to be unaffected. An area cannot be confirmed unaffected.

For this reason, it is possible that caving in an area that is believed to be unaffected but which is actually partially affected could spread WNS from an affected cave to an unaffected one. Thus decontamination is recommended.

I would personally argue that decontamination is most important in areas that are known to have some affected caves and believed strongly to have some unaffected caves (i.e. areas in transition, where WNS is just recently taking hold), second most important in areas believed to be totally unaffected, and third most important (i.e. least important) in areas where it appears that all sites that can be affected are (e.g. the original two counties of New York where WNS appeared). I suppose the very least important would be when going from one cave (of any description) to a cave known to have been affected by WNS.

Remember that the primary purpose of decontamination is to slow the spread of WNS to buy time for it to be cured, contained, or otherwise mitigated. Even when visiting a cave that is highly likely to become affected by WNS, it is worth decontaminating, especially if there is a high likelihood that it is not yet affected.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Crockett » Jun 3, 2009 7:56 am

Teresa wrote:Seem silly for me to do decon. Just in case? Case of what?


In case you pick up one of the uncountable number of OTHER microbes that could be carried from one unique fragile environment to another?

Decontamination:
Not for WNS
For the CAVES
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby ek » Jun 3, 2009 10:30 am

Decontamination is specifically targeted at the fungus associated with WNS. It does not necessarily kill other microbes. It doesn't necessarily kill this fungus either (which in turn isn't necessarily the infectious agent of WNS), but at least it is targeted toward doing so and the evolution of decontamination standards and particularly of the FWS protocol is based on perfecting it toward killing and eliminating the fungus associated with WNS.

If there were some other microbe that you wanted to avoid spreading from cave to cave, then of course while washing is better than not washing, I wouldn't recommend blindly assuming that WNS decontamination, even once it is shown to be effective against WNS (and modified as necessary to make this so), would be effective.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Carl Amundson » Jun 3, 2009 10:44 am

The current "offical" decom procedures WNS were adapted from procedures intended to kill "blood born" pathogens.
Unfortunately until we get some definitive WNS decom procedures from researchers, all current methods are just a "feel good procedure".
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby ek » Jun 3, 2009 11:22 am

I strongly doubt that the FWS decontamination protocol was originally designed to decontaminate bloodborne pathogens.

Consider: the NFPA procedure for decontaminating bloodborne pathogens is to soak with 1.5% concentration of chlorine bleach. The current FWS decontamination protocol--and this is of course subject to change and should be consulted directly at http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenosemessage.html#containment--says that if you choose to use bleach for decontamination, you should use a 10% concentration.

This is clearly higher, and I believe the reason is to kill fungus.

Please note also that other options currently provided by the FWS decontamination protocol are not considered satisfactory for decontaminating after exposure to bloodborne pathogens, like washing in a washing machine on the hot cycle with conventional detergent.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Carl Amundson » Jun 3, 2009 11:26 am

If there is research to back up these procedures, can you please provide a link to them.
or are they just someone's best guess?
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Teresa » Jun 3, 2009 11:33 am

Crockett wrote:
Teresa wrote:Seem silly for me to do decon. Just in case? Case of what?


In case you pick up one of the uncountable number of OTHER microbes that could be carried from one unique fragile environment to another?

Decontamination:
Not for WNS
For the CAVES


I'm glad you have unique fragile environments underground.

Around here, they are muddy and wet and filled with all sorts of decaying, rotting matter, animal feces, stream borne untreated septic material, bugs and insects, virii, bacteria, other fungii, clay, roots, chemical acids and alkali, both land and water critters and things which are not yet categorized. The more well known caves also contain enamel, petroleum volatiles, spent carbide and exploding batteries, lost human detrital gear, occasional underwear, glass, beer cans, rusting cars and washing machines, animal carcasses and other items too numerous to mention.

"Yes, Zorlock, set the planetary sterilization gun to DESTROY. Fire on sweep, NOW!" :rofl:

Humans most certainly should do our part not to muck up the place more than necessary, and clean up messes we make as far as possible. But I just don't buy that caves are pristine self-contained environments to be visited only in hazmat suits or that humans are intruders there. We're animals too, native to this planet as far as we can tell. Even if there were no people, water flows, soil moves, bats fly, animals travel and species unable to adapt become history. We certainly should not rush the process, but neither can we slow it, except temporarily. Even caves themselves are part of a process...not an end in themselves. To everything there is a season...

I'm very glad that the planet is teeming with all sorts of life, even intestinal flora, and fungi which clean up after dead things. Without it, we wouldn't be here. It will be interesting to find out more about WNS...maybe it has a higher purpose than killing bats. Science needs to look at this from a taller perspective than just what it does to our fellow mammals.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby ek » Jun 3, 2009 11:37 am

I agree that there is not necessarily anything inherently wrong with WNS, morally speaking.

I disagree with the notion that, in attempting to stop or contain WNS, we are being mammal-centric. We are engaging in a more specific prejudice--we're being human-centric.

WNS is really going to screw us up, to put it non-obscenely. Our crops are going to get eaten. Human disease will increase. That's fundamentally why powerful institutions are trying to address it.

We're presented with all sorts of other human-centric social burdens, and hardly anybody bats an eye. But now that being human-centric involves environmental conservation...

Ah, right. Most environmental conservation is human-centric, at least in the sense of serving humans well. And there's always been a great deal of cultural resistance to it.
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby Teresa » Jun 3, 2009 11:50 am

ek wrote:Consider: the NFPA procedure for decontaminating bloodborne pathogens is to soak with 1.5% concentration of chlorine bleach. The current FWS decontamination protocol--and this is of course subject to change and should be consulted directly at http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenosemessage.html#containment--says that if you choose to use bleach for decontamination, you should use a 10% concentration.
This is clearly higher, and I believe the reason is to kill fungus.


Then why is the level to decontaminate drinking water (which also may contain fungus/fungal spores) not 10%, too?
Given two bad choices, I'd rather wear spores than drink them. The bats are going to have to adapt to the fungus, or perish.
I seriously wonder if humans use extreme chemicals on WNS as a matter of course, will not a certain percentage of WNS develop chlorine resistance, and we'll be in a worse pickle than before? (Reference antibiotic resistant strep and staph varieties.)
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Re: WNS Decontamination Procedures

Postby ek » Jun 3, 2009 12:00 pm

Teresa wrote:
ek wrote:Consider: the NFPA procedure for decontaminating bloodborne pathogens is to soak with 1.5% concentration of chlorine bleach. The current FWS decontamination protocol--and this is of course subject to change and should be consulted directly at http://www.fws.gov/northeast/whitenosemessage.html#containment--says that if you choose to use bleach for decontamination, you should use a 10% concentration.
This is clearly higher, and I believe the reason is to kill fungus.


Then why is the level to decontaminate drinking water (which also may contain fungus/fungal spores) not 10%, too?

Perhaps because (a) you can't safely drink such a high concentration, (b) it's in the water for WAY longer than 10 minutes, and (c) it is homogeneously mixed with the water, rather than doing battle with a fungus impregnated in a weave.

Teresa wrote:I seriously wonder if humans use extreme chemicals on WNS as a matter of course, will not a certain percentage of WNS develop chlorine resistance, and we'll be in a worse pickle than before? (Reference antibiotic resistant strep and staph varieties.)

Well first of all, I don't think chlorine bleach is necessarily the future of WNS decontamination, because it cannot be used repeatedly on load-bearing textiles and because many if not most cavers are loathe to use it on their load-bearing textiles even once.

Second...are there any microbiologists on Cavechat who could address this question?

I believe that bacteria have a mechanism of adaptivity that is rather specific to bacteria, and the reason why antibiotic-resistant bacteria develop so quickly. Please note also that we use chlorine to kill bacteria all the time, and we don't see chlorine-resistant bacteria developing out of previously nonresistant strains...
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