Fungus serious threat to North American bats

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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby wyandottecaver » Feb 3, 2008 10:25 pm

the post was intended to be dramatic to make a point. That point being that if WNS can be spread by cavers and if a minority or even majority of cavers end up faciltating the spread of WNS by their caving choices, then ALL cavers will be affected by the result

It was not intended to be offensive. However, in my opinion, this *is* a dramatic subject that requires people to think critically not politically. 8-11,000 bats (we know about) in 1 year and spreading at least 110km by year 2 (after it wiped out 50-97% of the bats in year 1) is not something to be quiet about.

I actually tend to agree (as I have stated earlier) that this probably is carried by bats and that people may or may not be involved at all as agents of dispersal. But until we KNOW that, any caving we do in the affected areas or even those within migration distance of those areas is putting all bats at risk. If you think I am being dramatic.....get a second opinion...ask the NSS preserves, the states of NY and VT, or respected bat biologists who themselves are putting up thousands of dollars of their own money and begging the federal agencies to act.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby nordicjw » Feb 3, 2008 10:48 pm

I do not remember mentioning any names or quotes in my post, I was trying to make it as generic as possible. While you seem to agree that the mention of a certain regime was dramatic, I did not say I fround it offensive. Perhaps I understood the point you intended perfectly, but did others?

I certainly agree that the problem is serious, and that more needs to be learned. We may be getting off topic, how able we email?
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby mgmills » Feb 4, 2008 7:08 am

On the topic of the fungus. If it is spread by bats what is the "range" of the average bat. How far do they go ( 50 miles, 100 miles, further?) from the cave where they hibernate when the wake up in the spring? :question:

I'll admit I am very uneducated about bat habits. This topic has gotten my interst and I will be reading more about bats in the future. :cavechat:
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby caveflower » Feb 4, 2008 7:47 am

Come on guys. This is a very simple thing. We have a threat to a species. Once their gone their gone.

Is it so much to be asked to clean your gear and avoid caves with large bat populations.
To just be careful what you and how you do things. Any responsible caver should clean their gear between caves anyway. Not for only bats but for the other cavers with them.
I’m not a biologist but I know that humans have impacted the animal kingdom before.
If we can do something about this we should do everything we can and not complain about it.
We are in their home. Caves are the bats house. If you went to somebody’s house would you wipe you feet at the door or just walk right in with your muddy shoes.
To me this is an easy one! Think! :please:
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby ArCaver » Feb 4, 2008 9:00 am

As I've stated in a previous post I have no problem cleaning my gear. I do however think the USFWS guidelines are irresponible and dangerous. I also have no problem avoiding caves with large bat populations. But when caves with little bat activity start closing because just maybe humans might be aiding the spread of a possible pathogen into other caves, then I take exception.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby caveflower » Feb 4, 2008 11:02 am

But when caves with little bat activity start closing because just maybe humans might be aiding the spread of a possible pathogen into other caves, then I take exception.


I do agree that we don't need to close every cave in the US. But until we know for sure we all should take precautions.
Most of them are pretty simple and every caver should try their best to do them.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby adleedy » Feb 4, 2008 11:11 am

caveflower wrote:Any responsible caver should clean their gear between caves anyway. Not for only bats but for the other cavers with them.
How does not cleaning my gear affect other cavers?,as soon as I get into the cave all my gear is muddy and wet again.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby caveflower » Feb 4, 2008 11:28 am

The smell! You all been caving with some one who never cleans their stuff. Can get pretty stinky! Small crawlways you know what I mean. :laughing:
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby JasonD » Feb 4, 2008 11:35 am

Mgmills,

Distances traveled by bats during migration can vary. Winhold and Kurta banded Indiana bats in Michigan that were recovered in southern Indiana and central-to-eastern Kentucky. In a 2006 paper they list the maximum distance of migration from these studies as 357 miles. This is the current record for I-bats. If you look back to Humphrey and Cope (1976), they found little browns migrating 283 miles. There may be newer data for little browns, but I believe this is also the record. These are extremes, and most bats probably travel less. For example, recent spring emergence studies conducted in New York by NYSDEC and others, found most Indiana bats generally traveled less than 50 miles from hibernacula to summer maternity roosts. In the northeast, the PA Game Commission and others found similar results in Pennsylvania. John Chenger of this forum is heavily involved in that area as well as New Jersey, and would know much more than I do.

Of note is the fact that members of a maternity colony may not necessarily hibernate in the same hibernacula (see Kurta and Murray 2002, Winhold and Kurta 2006). So...there is a possibility of contact between bats of different hibernacula. Populations can also colonize new suitable hibernacula as they become available (abandoned mines, sinks as they open). The good news is that Indiana bats exhibit a high degree of fidelity to both hibernacula and summer maternity areas. This, coupled with the fact that there may be several interbreeding population groups (e.g. northeast, midwest, etc.), that may not ever come in contact with each other (see USFWS 2007 for several papers).

If you are interested, the USFWS-sponsored Indiana Bat Recovery Team just released a new draft of the Indiana bat recovery plan in 2007. It is very interesting (to me anyway), very well written, very easy to read, and summarizes tons of recent research. It is a great place to start. It is available here:

http://www.mcrcc.osmre.gov/Bats/PDF/IN%20BAT%20DRAFT%20PLAN%20apr07.pdf

Also, I can send you a bibliography for my extremely dry posting if you want...
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby pkinne » Feb 4, 2008 6:48 pm

I live in the Berkshire's not far from Albany. We have lots of solution type caves here. I am not sure about the fugus with any bats here but in the last week I have noticed bats out flying mid day. what might be the cause of that? I have seen several of them but not gotten a good look yet. any suggestions as my curiousity has peaked? :thanks:
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby JasonD » Feb 5, 2008 9:01 am

Bats arouse naturally during during hibernation as do all mammals (who hibernate). Everyone needs to go to the bathroom and get a drink of water. For bats, arousing every 10 - 15 days is typical, although this can vary greatly. Rates can depend on temperature, humidity, or other metabolic factors. Disturbance, whether human, raccoon, water levels, whatever, is a sure way to send bats out of a cave.

Sorry to get off topic, but I am hoping by answering your question and providing a little ecology, all the great ideas will keep flowing from everyone in this thread. WNS, whether it turns out to be serious or not (right now appears serious), will require the cooperation of cavers, landowners, biologists, everyone, if it is to be understood. There is your public service announcement...
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby ArCaver » Feb 5, 2008 5:26 pm

pkinne wrote:I live in the Berkshire's not far from Albany. We have lots of solution type caves here. I am not sure about the fugus with any bats here but in the last week I have noticed bats out flying mid day. what might be the cause of that? I have seen several of them but not gotten a good look yet. any suggestions as my curiousity has peaked? :thanks:


When the Federal agencies in this area start their controlled burns this time of year I start seeing a lot of bats flying, some during the day. I'll hit a couple from time to time with my Jeep when I drive through the deeper valleys, but I've never hit one with my car (aerodynamics?). Sometimes it seems they swarm in the valleys. I stopped and found one once, it was a red bat and I figure the burn woke it up. Have they been burning in your area?
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby wyandottecaver » Feb 5, 2008 6:00 pm

Red bats are known to hibernate in leaf litter and thus probably are more impacted by early spring burning than most other species.

At least for Indiana Bats I suspect the migration distances are also influenced by availability of summer and winter habitat. much of Indiana has some fairly good summer habitat, but the bulk of the suitable hibernacula are in the south. Also the number of bats looking for a summer home may be a factor. For S IN some portion of the population may be forced to migrate longer distances to escape competition. In the NE the proximity of caves to summer habitat may be shorter and the total number of bats is less.

also, at least here in S Indiana the weather is unseasonably warm and bats may be trying to catch the odd insect or two or just checking the groundhog's shadow for themselves :big grin:
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby mgmills » Feb 5, 2008 8:50 pm

JasonD wrote:Mgmills,

If you are interested, the USFWS-sponsored Indiana Bat Recovery Team just released a new draft of the Indiana bat recovery plan in 2007. It is very interesting (to me anyway), very well written, very easy to read, and summarizes tons of recent research. It is a great place to start. It is available here:

http://www.mcrcc.osmre.gov/Bats/PDF/IN%20BAT%20DRAFT%20PLAN%20apr07.pdf

Also, I can send you a bibliography for my extremely dry posting if you want...


I didn't think your post was dry. I thought it was informative. You attempted to answer my question.

I clicked on your link but with my slow old computer and dial-up internet a 260 page PDF would take forever to load. I will try to get to a library or borrow my daughter's fast connection next time I go visit her.

I really should educate myself more about bats.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby ek » Feb 6, 2008 1:41 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:I also think a serious discussion should be started now about NEXT winter. In particular doing extensive hibernacula surveys across the NE and midwest (with cross contamination prevention in mind) to identify infected sites by late next winter and taking a serious look at eliminating infected animals and even whole colonies. Yes, that means actively destroying animals in infected locations. I'll say it again, we must seriously consider exterminating infected colonies. With the high mobility of cavers and bats, and the aggressive nature of this disease we need to be thinking now about keeping BOTH cavers and bats from carrying this threat beyond the scope it reaches next winter if at all possible.

Here's an even more emotionally difficult idea, from the other side of the spectrum. In order to express this idea, I have to bring up some theoretical things, which I hope will not be viewed as off-topic.

Maybe, if this syndrome is not the result of recent human alteration to the ecosystem, it would be wrong make positive alterations to the environment to try to stop the spread of the disease and consequent massive die-offs.

This cuts to a major point of contention--is the diversity of species what is valuable, or is it the natural processes by which diversity of species happens that is valuable? Bats provide many benefits to humans, and that may be a valid reason to interfere in the natural development of bat species, altering ecosystems containing bats for our own benefit. But it is another thing entirely for humans to decide that we want there to be bats (of certain species, in certain locations, or *at all*), so we will alter the environment to make it conform to our wishes...and then call that environmental conservation. We know that bats are beneficial to humans because we define our own needs and desires over a short period of time--that of only a few generations. It is much more difficult to know what *natural* processes are bad for the Earth, and I am *terrified* of the idea that we should control the natural course that the planet takes.

One can argue that humans are already hurting the planet, so we should offset our harm by performing unrelated acts of mercy that do not address or reverse the harm we have done and are doing, but improve the natural world in other ways. I disagree. Just because an alteration to the environment looks like a good idea now does not mean that in the long run it is.

You can also say that humans are part of nature, and that is definitely true. In fact, a great deal of harm has been done due to people's failure to recognize that. And I would not say that it is generally wrong for one kind of life to effect devastating change on all others. (DIsagree? I guess those cyanobacteria are real Earth-destroyers!) But humans are able to understand, in part, the effects of what we do on the world, and we are also able to understand that our understanding is limited. Just as it is natural for us (as intelligent, tool-using beings) to have an effect on the planet, the urge to exercise moderation and limit the ways in which we interfere with other species is just as natural. The knowledge that humans are part of nature does not excuse us from keeping our hands off of things, absent a very compelling reason to do otherwise. The harm done by those who believe humans are separate from nature has usually arisen from the belief that humans are stewards and masters of nature. Neither is the case.

Now, humans have had an enormous impact on bats already, mostly in the last couple generations, and it has been virtually all negative. Bats would be doing a lot better if it weren't for us. So it may make sense for us to interfere with them, to the point of intentionally killing some of them to save others, so as to partially reverse the damage that we have caused (and are causing). But that would be a conclusion that would have to be supported with compelling evidence, and in my (inadequately humble) opinion, you need a *lot* of evidence to be secure in the belief that it is right to enter a natural environment and deliberately kill things for the express purpose of interfering with a major natural process.
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