Fungus serious threat to North American bats

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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby ArCaver » Feb 29, 2008 4:37 pm

VACaver wrote:I'm also going to have to ask for some reasons why particular caves are closed if they are not known hibernacula. Having recently been in one of the caves on the list and not seeing a large bat population, one of the people I was with called me and aksed, "Why is this cave on the list...I didn't see many bats."

That question was already asked. The answer, as I recall, was that a bat might go into a cave that a caver has been in and infected with some as yet unknown pathogen. The bat, having been infected by this mystery disease, could then fly to another cave and pass on the infection to other bats. To me it's a ridiculous argument and sounds like WNS is being used as an excuse to close a few extra caves. But then I'm not a scientist, just a caver.
I have the occasional pipistrel on my porch every summer. Could someone tell me if I should close my porch this year? Are we to avoid entering any area where bats are feeding?
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby tncaver » Feb 29, 2008 4:45 pm

In general, bats should be avoided all the time by the average caver. Bats should never be disturbed during hibernation.
Known bat hibernacula should be avoided this time of year in every state, but I fail to see why non bat caves should be closed.
Precautions yes, insanity no.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby VACaver » Feb 29, 2008 4:47 pm

NZcaver wrote:
I would contend the biggest problem occurs when some of these other organizations and individuals try to interpret good advice, and shape their own policies from it. Particularly if they're very careless about wording their own advisories and directives - ie "all caves should be closed, and everybody stay out."


I concur wholeheartedly!

Case in point: Last week a caver/cave owner (who shall remain nameless) sent out an e-mail announcing that part of their cave is now closed due to the risk of spreading WNS...even though the cave is probably 400+ miles from any exposed cave.

Anyway, in the e-mail, the owner links to the FWS website and says that anyone coming to the open part of the cave must comply with the recommended decontamination procedures. Right away, the fur starts to fly about people refusing to bleach their gear. The owner comes out and says they did not say to bleach gear...until it was pointed out that by linking to the FWS site, that was EXACTLY what they were saying.

So, yes, even though intentions are good, careless wording can and will create needless tension.
Last edited by VACaver on Feb 29, 2008 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby Scott McCrea » Feb 29, 2008 4:51 pm

NZcaver wrote:But this is exactly what some of these initial agencies (such as NY DEC) and their key people have been saying all along! To my knowledge, Al Hicks and the other key WNS people up here have been very careful to work closely with the caving community and not bully anybody.

I would contend the biggest problem occurs when some of these other organizations and individuals try to interpret good advice, and shape their own policies from it. Particularly if they're very careless about wording their own advisories and directives - ie "all caves should be closed, and everybody stay out."

:yeah that:
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby Teresa » Feb 29, 2008 5:21 pm

tncaver wrote:In general, bats should be avoided all the time by the average caver.
Precautions yes, insanity no.


??? And why are we supposed to avoid bats? (I used to come home to them in an aquarium on my kitchen table.) There is a world of difference between waking a hibernating colony with a shotgun blast, using a bat for kickball and looking right into one of the little guy's eyes fat and sassy in June as it is hanging on the wall in its non-maternity home. Generalizations are dangerous things. Since we don't know what WNS is yet, or if it is novel, or something that happens from time to time, I suggest everyone pull back on the reins of galloping paranoia.

People won't care for something they don't know, and haven't experienced. Put bats in that category, and we're headed right back for screaming rabid, leather-winged devil territory.
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Re: WV cave closures and more WNS info

Postby John Lovaas » Feb 29, 2008 5:57 pm

hewhocaves wrote:John - this is an excellent example of data manipulation to further a particular opinion.


Hi John-

Well, I'm pretty sure I don't have an opinion yet on WNS, and I did not intend to "manipulate" data. We don't know what WNS is, we don't know what causes or transports it, but I reckon I do have a life outside of caving. And if the Midwest FWS folks asked Midwest cavers to stay out of our (few) significant bat caves while they tried to figure out what is happening, I would happily and cheerfully comply- a result of having a life outside of caving. There are many activities I can take part in on a given weekend. To think of these closures as being an "inconvenience" to me, or anyone else, is laughable.

So if being cooperative with agency people is the same as "having an opinion"- well, I guess I do have an opinion.

hewhocaves wrote:It also does not take into account the number of caves in WV which are 1) very small 2) already closed for other reasons.


That's why I mentioned the 44/19 figure. Of the 44 caves listed in the WV document, 19 were already closed year round or seasonally.

hewhocaves wrote:But each passing day until the end of the second winter of WNS that it doesn't appear outside of the NE is a day that makes the argument of caver-transport less and less likely.


I would argue that there is insufficient information available to state whether WNS is or is not transmittable by caver's actions. So it behooves us as cavers to cooperate and assist agency and science folks to find out what is happening.
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Re: WV cave closures and more WNS info

Postby adleedy » Feb 29, 2008 6:08 pm

Hi John-

Well, I'm pretty sure I don't have an opinion yet on WNS, and I did not intend to "manipulate" data. We don't know what WNS is, we don't know what causes or transports it, but I reckon I do have a life outside of caving. And if the Midwest FWS folks asked Midwest cavers to stay out of our (few) significant bat caves while they tried to figure out what is happening, I would happily and cheerfully comply- a result of having a life outside of caving. There are many activities I can take part in on a given weekend. To think of these closures as being an "inconvenience" to me, or anyone else, is laughable.

So if being cooperative with agency people is the same as "having an opinion"- well, I guess I do have an opinion.


who's opposing the closure of significant bat caves? I see no problem with closing the significant bat caves, only the closure of non significant to non-bat caves which appear on the list.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby John Lovaas » Feb 29, 2008 6:38 pm

adleedy wrote:who's opposing the closure of significant bat caves? I see no problem with closing the significant bat caves, only the closure of non significant to non-bat caves which appear on the list.


Well, you've stated that there are "non-significant" and "non-bat" caves. Perhaps the two caves you mentioned in a prior post are more significant that you know. Perhaps these caves will act as controls- I don't know.

A "non-significant"(self perceived) medical condition in a patient may indeed be significant(in reality) to a trained observer. Who is is best able to determine "significance"? The trained observer.

What I do know is that smarter folks than you and I made these choices, and they did not make these choices in order to try and mess up your weekend plans.
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Re: WV cave closures and more WNS info

Postby ArCaver » Feb 29, 2008 6:40 pm

adleedy wrote:
Hi John-

Well, I'm pretty sure I don't have an opinion yet on WNS, and I did not intend to "manipulate" data. We don't know what WNS is, we don't know what causes or transports it, but I reckon I do have a life outside of caving. And if the Midwest FWS folks asked Midwest cavers to stay out of our (few) significant bat caves while they tried to figure out what is happening, I would happily and cheerfully comply- a result of having a life outside of caving. There are many activities I can take part in on a given weekend. To think of these closures as being an "inconvenience" to me, or anyone else, is laughable.

So if being cooperative with agency people is the same as "having an opinion"- well, I guess I do have an opinion.


who's opposing the closure of significant bat caves? I see no problem with closing the significant bat caves, only the closure of non significant to non-bat caves which appear on the list.


I agree! The whole argument has been about closing caves without significant populations of bats! Some caves with no bats! I know many cavers are thinking it's not affecting them, and maybe it wont. But even if WNS doesn't spread I predict the closures will.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby tncaver » Feb 29, 2008 6:43 pm

tncaver wrote:In general, bats should be avoided all the time by the average caver.
Precautions yes, insanity no.


Teresa wrote:??? And why are we supposed to avoid bats? Generalizations are dangerous things. Since we don't know what WNS is yet, or if it is novel, or something that happens from time to time, I suggest everyone pull back on the reins of galloping paranoia.

People won't care for something they don't know, and haven't experienced. Put bats in that category, and we're headed right back for screaming rabid, leather-winged devil territory.


Teresa,
My statement for average cavers to avoid bats all the time was primarily for the sake of the bats and primarily referring
to hibernating bats. However, I think it is wise not to handle bats any time of the year without wearing gloves. They bite
and some do carry diseases. When I encounter bats in caves I try not to disturb them whether it is hibernation time
or not. I'm not a bat biologist so I see no reason for me or any other average caver to be handling or disturbing bats. It doesn't take much to get a group of bats flying around, which can be unpleasant when they fly toward your face. I think not bothering bats is just a good common sense standard operating procedure for most cavers.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby wyandottecaver » Feb 29, 2008 6:52 pm

As has been posted before, the DC grotto WNS page is a good source for updated info. Read it.

thousands of bat carcasses have been observed and collected in NY and a smaller number in VT and that information is found at http://www.caves.org/grotto/dcg/wns-hicks2.html and http://www.caves.org/grotto/dcg/wns-youngbaer.html

Humans probably aren't spreading WNS. But as a TEMPORARY PRECAUTION cavers are being asked to change their habits. Since we don't know for sure if we are part of the problem, we are being asked to make TEMPORARY, MINOR SACRIFICES IN OUR RECREATION in an effort to try and preserve the LIVES of hundreds of thousands of bats, potentially millions if it reaches TAG and the midwest. Why are so many caves being closed that don't seem important, even distant from the known affected areas? Why are caves apparently without bats closed? because some are summer roosts, some are winter roosts, some have bats all the time, some have bats that migrate through to other areas, some connect to bat caves, some are just in close proximity to important caves, but mostly IT DOESN"T HURT US to be cautious, at least initially, but it might WIPE OUT WHOLE COLONIES OR STATEWIDE POPULATIONS if we aren't careful enough.

I have frequently criticized the USFWS and I think their moving forward with legal action to permanently close some caves that were previously seasonally closed based on WNS is just stupid...but IMHO they seem institutionally programmed for that kind of crap. BUT I do support widespread TEMPORARY closures.

Remember that states have some soveriegn rights too. If PA hasn't issued closures it could mean that there is a perception that fewer important bat areas are at risk, or simply that their DNR is still assessing the situation.

Many people will continue "business as usual" either because we have done a poor job of educating them as to WHY it's important, or because they only value the attributes of caves important to their pastime..scooping, digging, exploring, etc. and not the ecological role those environments play. Or they simply don't recognize self sacrifice as a legitimate option regardless of the risks.

This almost certainly will kill hundreds of thousands of bats by next winter...and likely even by this spring. We don't have conclusive evidence for much yet, but we DO have conclusive evidence for extreme caution!

IMHO if, after reading this WHOLE thread and the information available by links on the DC grotto WNS page, you still dont consider WNS a threat to bats, don't accept that it is *possible* cavers can accidently spread it, and still don't consider temporarily restricting your caving activities in the NE and surrounding states until we know more, and dont follow at least some basic regimen of gear cleaning (not necessarily bleach) as an important precaution in the interest of trying to protect bats....you have a conservation ethic not far removed from the paint taggers and bat stompers because you obviously just dont CARE if you impact bat populations or not...so long as you get to have fun. Sorry if the truth hurts.
Last edited by wyandottecaver on Feb 29, 2008 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby adleedy » Feb 29, 2008 6:58 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:As has been posted before, the DC grotto WNS page is a good source for updated info. Read it.

thousands of bat carcasses have been observed and collected in NY and a smaller number in VT and that information is found at http://www.caves.org/grotto/dcg/wns-hicks2.html and http://www.caves.org/grotto/dcg/wns-youngbaer.html

Humans probably aren't spreading WNS. But as a TEMPORARY PRECAUTION cavers are being asked to change their habits. Since we don't know for sure if we are part of the problem, we are being asked to make TEMPORARY, MINOR SACRIFICES IN OUR RECREATION in an effort to try and preserve the LIVES of hundreds of thousands of bats, potentially millions if it reaches TAG and the midwest. Why are so many caves being closed that don't seem important, even distant from the known affected areas? because some are summer roosts, some are winter roosts, some have bats, but mostly IT DOESN"T HURT US to be cautious, at least initially, but it might WIPE OUT WHOLE COLONIES OR STATEWIDE POPULATIONS if we aren't careful enough.

I have frequently criticized the USFWS and I think their moving forward with legal action to permanently close some caves that were previously seasonally closed based on WNS is just stupid...but IMHO they seem institutionally programmed for that kind of crap. BUT I do support widespread TEMPORARY closures.

Remember that states have some soveriegn rights too. If PA hasn't issued closures it could mean that there is a perception that fewer important bat areas are at risk, or simply that their DNR is still assessing the situation.

Many people will continue "business as usual" either because we have done a poor job of educating them as to WHY it's important, or because they only value the attributes of caves important to their pastime..scooping, digging, exploring, etc. and not the ecological role those environments play. Or they simply don't recognize self sacrifice as a legitimate option regardless of the risks.

This almost certainly will kill hundreds of thousands of bats by next winter...and likely even by this spring. We don't have conclusive evidence for much yet, but we DO have conclusive evidence for extreme caution!

IMHO if, after reading this WHOLE thread and the information available by links on the DC grotto WNS page, you still dont consider WNS a threat to bats, don't accept that it is *possible* cavers can accidently spread it, and still don't consider temporarily restricting your caving activities in the NE and surrounding states until we know more, and dont follow at least some basic regimen of gear cleaning (not necessarily bleach) as an important precaution in the interest of trying to protect bats....you have a conservation ethic not far removed from the paint taggers and bat stompers because you obviously just dont CARE if you impact bat populations or not...so long as you get to have fun. Sorry if the truth hurts.


None of this informations answers the question at hand, so why does it keep getting brought into this conversation?, it does not anwser why non-bat and non-significant bat caves are being closed.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby wyandottecaver » Feb 29, 2008 7:08 pm

leedy,

I edited the above post before yours.

The other information is important because without getting an idea of how serious WNS is, how many bats it is affecting, and how fast it is spreading, then the importance of being extra cautious in closing otherwise minor caves is lost.

I don't know the particulars of every cave chosen. However, from a biological and containment standpoint there are several reasons that "non bat" caves might be included. The caves could be used seasonally (summer and/or winter), used during migration, could connect to a bat cave, could be near a bat cave, or could be in an area infected with WNS and might be suspected to contain *something* that could be transported. Also, the roost locations of some sensitive species are deliberately kept secret so they might not be recognized as bat caves by most cavers.

I have sent an email to the WVDNR suggesting Craig Stihler elaborate on reasons by cave for the closures. If you guys think this is bad, I predict it will get much worse...for cavers AND for bats.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby adleedy » Feb 29, 2008 7:21 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:leedy,

I edited the above post before yours. I don't know the particulars of every cave chosen. However, from a biological and containment standpoint there are several reasons that "non bat" caves might be included. The caves could be used seasonally (summer and/or winter), used during migration, could connect to a bat cave, could be near a bat cave, or could be in an area infected with WNS and might be suspected to contain *something* that could be transported. Also, the roost locations of some sensitive species are deliberately kept secret so they might not be recognized as bat caves by most cavers.

I have sent an email to the WVDNR suggesting Craig Stihler elaborate on reasons by cave for the closures. If you guys think this is bad, I predict it will get much worse...for cavers AND for bats.


the main reason i have such a big issue with this is for a couple reasons: two of the caves had wrong county's listed for them, These are also the two caves that i question why they are on the list. they do not connect to other caves, one of them floods severely and the entrance is sometimes blocked shut, the other cave does contain bats but certainly not very many. It just makes me wonder what other porblems the list has. Im just wanting a straight anwser to this. If you get this from craig please let me know,
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Re: Fungus serious threat to NE bats

Postby ron_miller » Feb 29, 2008 7:29 pm

adleedy wrote:FIRST OF ALL RON, . . .


Well, I must not have understood you before, but since you basically re-iterated THE SAME THING IN ALL CAPS, now I have a much better understanding! :tonguecheek:

Regardless of your continuing and quite un-moderator-like breach of basic netiquette, this is really an important topic that you're certainly not alone in being frustrated about. In the interests of moving beyond this issue, I'll try to address each of what I think are your two points. If I mis-state your position, please correct me, though I would appreciate being addressed in a calm, rational, and "sentence-case" tone.

adleedy point #1 - The number of dead bats actually reported is far fewer than the "thousands" of dead bats being claimed as killed.

Response: You're absolutely right, but this misses the point that scientists are inferring the larger number using a combination of clues. With one important exception, the data that I've seen to date have reported finding carcasses in the hundreds, not thousands. The notable exception is Hailes Cave, where "Bat carcasses and parts of carcasses were estimated to number in the thousands" (Hicks and others, 2007a).

At the risk of putting myself in the brain of a bat biologist, here's a likely chain of reasoning by which they arrive at the higher number.

- Hundreds (Hicks and others, 2007b) to thousands (e.g.Hailes, Hicks and others, 2007a) of dead bat carcasses found in cave hibernacula.

- Evidence of previously unreported scavenging of bat carcasses from affected caves. "An abundance of raccoon droppings filled with bat bones, and the presence of mink droppings, indicate that substantial numbers of bats were consumed within Hailes Cave. There has never been evidence of predation in the 30 years we have been surveying the site, nor anything this year that would make live animals more vulnerable to predators. We believe that they were scavenged." (Hicks and others, 2007b)

- The affected hibernacula exhibited dramatic reductions of bats wintering year over year. The reduced populations in just two NY caves totaled 9,700 (Hicks and others, 2007b).

- Bats often die outside of caves, so the number found in the caves very likely represents a small fraction of the total deaths. "Although these mortalities do not involve particularly large numbers of bats, they do represent significant portions of the wintering populations. This is especially true given that many bats leave the hibernacula before dying, or the carcasses are scavenged." (Hicks and others, 2007b)

- Dramatic increases in the numbers of dead bats being reported outside of caves supports the hypothesis that the increased mortality is occurring both in the hibernacula and outside. "Winter submissions from the Albany County region to the NYS Health Department (DOH) of Myotis spp. were 10 times higher than mean submission rates over the last decade." (Hicks and others, 2007a)

To summarize, the scientists are seeing hundreds to thousands of dead bats in hibernacula, evidence that bat carcasses are being scavenged, and a tenfold increase in the number of dead bats (which presumably died outside the hibernacula) being submitted to DEC from the public in the affected area. The bat populations in the affected hibernacula have declined by many thousands (and presumably have not gone elsewhere). Bats often die outside hibernacula. Maybe others will disagree, but it seems to me to be a reasonable inference from these observations that the "missing bats" probably died of the same causes as the ones found inside the cave.

Regardless, who cares whether the number of bats dead from WNS is 1,000, 10,000, or 100,000? It doesn't change the underlying issue, that bats are dieing in unexpected numbers for unknown reasons in a geographically confined area, the lateral extent of which is increasing.

adleedy point #2. There is no evidence to suggest that cavers are contributing to the spread of the problem (or, as adleedy so elegantly put it himself: "I DONT NOT BELIEVE CAVERS ARE SPREADING IT."

Response - You may be absolutely right on this as well! If you read my post, and if you have indeed read the references as you claim to have done, you will note that neither I nor anyone who is studying this issue state that there is any evidence that cavers are contributing to the problem. All of this hullabaloo is based on the following hypothetical:

- If whatever is causing WNS is present on cave surfaces, there is the potential that cavers could transport it from one cave to another, thus spreading the source to previous unaffected areas.

What's the likelihood of this being true? In the absence of any data, that question could be argued forever, but I would just state that, in my opinion, the upside of erring on the side of caution on this one, for however long it takes for the scientists to come back with some answers, far outweighs the downside of having some caves closed temporarily and being asked to take some extra precautions to avoid even the possibility of inadvertently spreading this.

Cheers,

Ron
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