Fungus serious threat to North American bats

[adleedy]

What information do we have that this is being spread by cavers? What makes us think all these bats are dying, Where are the bodys? If this was being spread by cavers im certain the problem would be alot more widespread. Even if this is killing the bats, i still dont believe it is being spread by cavers.

Well, when the biologists stated that there was a 90-97% mortality rate; they didn't pull the numbers out of their arse.

The reason for any of these closures is that the primary cause of mortality, and its contagiousness/ease of transmission is UNKNOWN. Therefore, the DNR and FWS would like cavers to assist in eliminating one variable- the POSSIBILITY, however remote, that the agent MIGHT be carried to other hibernacula by human activity.

Do you earn your living from caves? Do you have a science experiment deployed in one of these caves that needs to be maintained before the closure ends? I'm going to go out on the limb and say NO, you do not.

A quick count of the WV list shows 44 caves caves closed for WNS concerns- 19 of which are already closed seasonally or year-round. This, out of West Virginia's 3,000+ caves- this is an inconvenience to you? The only hindrance these closures offer to you is that you may, God Forbid, have to find something else to do on a given weekend weekend this spring.

Let's see- assist in determining what's going on with WNS by avoiding 1.4% of all West Virginia caves for a little while, or bitch about the perception of not having something to do this weekend. Huh. Seems like a no-brainer for someone who supports the goals and aims of the National Speleological Society.

IM GONNA STAND UP FOR WHAT I BELIEVE BUDDY!!!!!!!!!! JUST BECAUSE IM A MEMBER OF THE NSS DOESNT MEAN I HAVE TO GO ALONG OR AGREE WITH EVERYONE ELSE!!!!!!!!!

[adleedy]

Well, when the biologists stated that there was a 90-97% mortality rate; they didn't pull the numbers out of their arse. well then where are the 97% percent of dead bat bodies????

[John Lovaas]

Well, when the biologists stated that there was a 90-97% mortality rate; they didn't pull the numbers out of their arse. well then where are the 97% percent of dead bat bodies????

Well- I would think you asked the biologists, yes? And their answer was- ? Or perhaps you visited these high mortality caves yourself?

Washed away, eaten by raccoons, cave rats, mice, beetles, crickets, fungi.... that's usually what happens to dead things in caves. I think it's how ecosystems work. Things die and get broken down and consumed by other things.

[adleedy]

Well, when the biologists stated that there was a 90-97% mortality rate; they didn't pull the numbers out of their arse. well then where are the 97% percent of dead bat bodies????

Well- I would think you asked the biologists, yes? And their answer was- ? Or perhaps you visited these high mortality caves yourself?

Washed away, eaten by raccoons, cave rats, beetles, crickets, fungi.... that's usually what happens to dead things in caves. I think it's how ecosystems work. Things die and get broken down and consumed by other things.

thousands of dead bodies would take a while to be consumed, and another thing, The main point of my original post is not denying that wns is killing bats but that people are going overboard with cave closures in wv, closing caves that do not need to be, This doesnt even effect me too much, but i still believe in it. everyone who get upset at my post is just a fine example of the person who catches flack because he stands against all the others and says exactly what everyone else is thinking but won't say.

[NZcaver]

Ah, yes. It would appear that disinformation, paranoia, and counter-paranoia have very quickly overwhelmed what few solid facts we know. Common sense is not always the same ground for everybody.

I still maintain that avoiding known bat hibernacula is a prudent move, particularly in the northeast, for the remainder of the winter. I also think it's a good idea to diligently clean your gear between visiting different caves, and in particular if travelling to different regions. But like many of you, I question what influence humans have in spreading this. I try to be open minded, but I still see no reason to close caves which don't contain bats. Nor do I see much logic in the huge magnitude of blanket closures we are starting to see implemented far away from the northeast.

We humans have a significant influence on our fellow animals of course, but not everything is so easily cut and dried. I wonder if the next generations of bats in these parts will ultimately develop their own natural immunity to WNS, despite our best efforts to save them all right now.


I wouldn't say I'm sitting on the fence over this... but if you think I am, feel free to flame me for it.

[MoonshineR DavE]

Cavemud and VACaver, I'll be havin' me some of that popcorn now.

[MUD]

Its all gone brother but I'ma fixin up another round, this is gettin good.

[MoonshineR DavE]

Butter and salt?

[John Lovaas]

thousands of dead bodies would take a while to be consumed

I see that the cave in question(97% mortality rate) is in New York. So I am to understand that you visited this cave shortly after the mortality event and found no evidence of bat carcasses?

...people are going overboard with cave closures in wv...

Again, my thumbnail statistic- 44 caves, 19 already closed part or full time- so the actual number of newly closed caves would be around 25. 8/10ths of one percent of all of West Virginia's caves. This is overboard? Huh.

[hewhocaves]

A quick count of the WV list shows 44 caves caves closed for WNS concerns- 19 of which are already closed seasonally or year-round. This, out of West Virginia's 3,000+ caves- this is an inconvenience to you? The only hindrance these closures offer to you is that you may, God Forbid, have to find something else to do on a given weekend weekend this spring.

John - this is an excellent example of data manipulation to further a particular opinion. While it is numerically accurate, it conveys an incorrect impression of the whole picture. It is statistically biased in that cave visitation by recreational cavers is often the event which brings a large bat colony to the attention of the bat people. It also does not take into account the number of caves in WV which are 1) very small 2) already closed for other reasons. It also is statistically biased in that cave visitation by recreational cavers is often the event which brings a large bat colony to the attention of the bat people. In fact the number of caves visitable in West Virginia probably numbers only in the dozens - maybe a couple hundred. If we take 200 as the total number of 'recreational' caves, then 44 of 200 is approximately 1/4th of the total - a far larger percentage.

The converse could be applied to bat hibernacula. If we take into account every possible place where bats COULD hibernate - that is every house, barn, mine, tunnel, cave and other, and find the percentage of places infected with WNS, the answer will be essentially zero. Thus WNS cannot exist, q.e.d.

If people want to understand why some cavers are beginning to show skepticism with the whole process, this is IMHO representative. A combination of unrealistic assessment of caving options (i.e. this really isn't an inconvenience to you) along with verbal chastising for not showing the appropriate level of respect is not the way to continue good inter-caver and bat people-caver relations.

Sorry to use you as an example John... I don't mean anything personal by it and you're certainly not the only one to express this opinion. But each passing day until the end of the second winter of WNS that it doesn't appear outside of the NE is a day that makes the argument of caver-transport less and less likely.

And the last thing I'd like to add to this is simply this - for those of you outside the affected area and outside the 'buffer' area (which I guess WV falls into) who can still go caving without any concern I'd like to remind you that it's pretty easy to judge from afar. When you find that this sort of thing comes to dominate every grotto meeting and people start drawing lines in the sand in your own backyard, you may not find it as easy to see things in 'black and white'.

hopefully, though.. the slippery slope will stop before it reaches YOUR state.

[MUD]

Let's not get off topic! Back to it........

EDIT: This was meant to be after Moonshiner's post!

[Scott McCrea]

I believe that if the official folks (DNR, FWS, etc) would have simply said, "please avoid caves that have bats in them until we figure out what's happening," cavers would have went out of their way to avoid, and make sure everyone else avoided, the caves. Cavers will lay down in front of bulldozers to protect caves—and bats. But, they don't like to be bullied.

[VACaver]

I'm also going to have to ask for some reasons why particular caves are closed if they are not known hibernacula. Having recently been in one of the caves on the list and not seeing a large bat population, one of the people I was with called me and aksed, "Why is this cave on the list...I didn't see many bats."

[MUD]

The secret cavers are secretly laughin...

[NZcaver]

I believe that if the official folks (DNR, FWS, etc) would have simply said, "please avoid caves that have bats in them until we figure out what's happening," cavers would have went out of their way to avoid, and make sure everyone else avoided, the caves. Cavers will lay down in front of bulldozers to protect caves—and bats. But, they don't like to be bullied.

But this is exactly what some of these initial agencies (such as NY DEC) and their key people have been saying all along! To my knowledge, Al Hicks and the other key WNS people up here have been very careful to work closely with the caving community and not bully anybody.

I would contend the biggest problem occurs when some of these other organizations and individuals try to interpret good advice, and shape their own policies from it. Particularly if they're very careless about wording their own advisories and directives - ie "all caves should be closed, and everybody stay out."