by icave » Feb 12, 2008 3:59 pm
With Chris Sander's permission, I am reprinting below Chris' response to some of the questions I raised regarding Mr. Stone's interview. I believe Chris provides some well thought answers to several of the important points made in the interview.
Mike,
I can provide a few of the answers you are looking for. I've embeded them into your original message and put my text in blue. I'm not in the heart of the WNS research area and time is needed to sort these things out so I've not been looking to the NY folks for the theory of the day, so I may be a bit behind on the latest. Here's what I thought about the Stone radio interview. I apologize to those of you who are on multiple lists and are going to get this six times, but that Stone interview seems to be leading people down an unlikely belief path that needs some alternate explanation. Please forward this to any NY and New England caver listserves.
I'm highly suspicious of his global warming arguments. We would be seeing infections and issues range wide, PA's weather has been as odd as NY's. Bats can do some moving around in hibernation sites to find the best temperatures in a site. Many of NY's mines are huge and have varied temperature zones.
There is no doubt that the fungus could be and probably is an opportunistic infection, but even if so, something is enabling that infection to take root. He mentioned items like PCBs, mercury, etc. as possible stressors, bats in hibernacula of this size come from large areas, a 100 mile or more radius from each of the big ones is likely and now the affected hibernacula are up to 135 miles from one another. It is unlikely that all these bats would have picked up the same environmental poison across this range. This leads me to believe whatever is affecting the bats is being transferred, probably bat to bat, but could be person to bat. Could just be a bat cold or the flu that is weakening them and making them susceptible to fungus, I don't know and will be waiting to see more lab/pathology/necropsy data. What he fails to mention is that yes, these types if fungus are common, but it's pretty unlikely that they have been described to the species level (I could be wrong, but small soil fungus types are more likely IDed to family or genus level) so this could be a new strain.
I do think that closing caves in WV might be a bit premature, but caution is wise when faced with grave situations. I also think that every cave with more than 100 bats should be closed in winter regardless of white nose or not. Closing all NY/New England caves/mines is an excellent precaution, cleaning of cave gear is also a super good idea just in case either the main cause or one of the stressors could hitch a ride to distant areas.
At this point, there are some ideas and theories floating around, but more time is needed to really figure out the root of this problem. Dr Ward Stone is jumping to a conclusion not supported by the facts before there has been time to really look at the data.
At 11:49 AM 2/12/2008, Mike Spencer wrote:
1. Is the fungus commonly naturally occuring in caves as he states? If so, are the types found on the dead/dying bats unique to the areas with bat kills?
I'm not 100% sure, so I am speculating to some degree, but things as small as soil fungus are not generally identified to species. A genus or family sure. However the specific species on the bats could be new or from China or Texas or who knows where.
2. He reports finding many other dead bats not exhibiting any fungus. What are the current bat expert thoughts on this? I would expect if the fungus were the cause it would be seen on all related kills.
Maybe, maybe not. Here's a wild example, not likely to be true, but an example of why we have to keep open minds and not lock onto one theory. If in these colonies of lots of bats, some have a killer fungus and it wakes them up due to low fat reserves or those infected bats can't go back into hibernation after waking normally (bats wake every few weeks to get a drink and maybe kick start their immune system), these distressed bats might make a lot of noise/ruckus in the hibernacula and wake healthy bats up too often for the NON infected bats to survive hibernation. There is just SO much we don't know it's hard guess what the answers might be.
3. He reports only supperficial and potential secondary fungal growths. What have others found? Are agencies currently culturing the fungus to examine them in more detail?
I'd go as far as assuming lots of things are being looked at, cultured, tested. I did hear some of the bats had pneumonia like symptoms.
4. Are there any reports or thoughs on the statement of finding bats outside caves/mines with the same problems in fat reserve? This concerns me geratly if the reports are ture, as it could indicate a much wider problem than just caves and mines.
I kinda was under the impression he was referring to bats that had left hibernacula in the winter because they had too low body fat to stay and were turning up in other places. I have not heard of summer kills that are thought to be related to the WNS.
5. It there a potential relation between the warm weather we have had the last few years with a decrease in bat fat reserves? I have personally observed bats flying much later into November in the last few years that any other years I can remember. What have you seen?
Could be, but unlikely. Generally if it's warm enough for bats to be flying, it's warm enough for the bugs they eat to come out. Bats such as the big brown hibernate in areas (cliffs, talus, houses) where temperature fluctuate and are known for getting up and foraging in warm snaps. In areas with over wintering tree bats they can exhibit the same wake and eat when warm behavior. Most of the bats you see flying in winter are probably not the same bat species being seen in high numbers dying in the NY sites.
Cross your fingers and keep an open mind.
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Chris Sanders
Sanders Environmental Inc.
Signature, I don't need no stinkin signature!
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