Fungus serious threat to North American bats

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Re: Fungus serious threat to North American bats

Postby tncaver » May 16, 2010 7:10 am

There was a gated mine in the same general area as Howe Caverns that was infected approximately the same time as Howe. A gated mine that had no caver
visitation. That kind of screws up the caver vector theory from the git go.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to North American bats

Postby Teresa » May 16, 2010 8:14 pm

ArCaver wrote:I was asking because Howe Cave seems to be cited as ground zero. There were some who said this was evidence of people bringing it in because Howe Caverns is heavily visited. Then I heard that photos had been taken as early as 2004 showing the telltale fungus and I wondered what cave they were from, or if there were any from earlier than that.


This is the mitigation scenario sequence which makes things insane:

1)Fungus discovered in Howe Caverns --heavily visited show cave.
2) Fungus discovered in nearby gated mine.
3) Cavers accused of bringing/spreading G.destructans spores/WNS because there was a caver event in upstate New York.
4) Cavers from Europe targeted, even though no cavers from Europe attended the caver event.
5) Wild caves across the country closed to humans (mostly cavers) because of point 3.
6)WNS continues to be found in gated caves and mines, and caves closed to human visitation.
7) Bat to bat infection discovered in hibernacula, where most cavers do not go in winter.
8) More caves shut across the country, including Missouri. Two caves found with G.d and WNS: one a private land cave generally off-limits to cavers and the newest a gated bat cave with unbreached gate.
9)With the exception of Dunbar in TN, $how caves$ with only cursory screenings of visitors remain open.
10) Cavers who disinfected gear kicked off wild cave tour because they were "known cavers." Members of general public allowed to proceed on tour.

Therefore cavers must be major known vector of WNS and should report to disinfection chambers immediately.

If any of the above makes any sense as a logical "If -Then" series of statements please email me. I have a bridge to sell you. :rofl:
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Re: Fungus serious threat to North American bats

Postby ArCaver » May 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Teresa wrote:
ArCaver wrote:I was asking because Howe Cave seems to be cited as ground zero. There were some who said this was evidence of people bringing it in because Howe Caverns is heavily visited. Then I heard that photos had been taken as early as 2004 showing the telltale fungus and I wondered what cave they were from, or if there were any from earlier than that.


This is the mitigation scenario sequence which makes things insane:

1)Fungus discovered in Howe Caverns --heavily visited show cave.
2) Fungus discovered in nearby gated mine.
3) Cavers accused of bringing/spreading G.destructans spores/WNS because there was a caver event in upstate New York.
4) Cavers from Europe targeted, even though no cavers from Europe attended the caver event.
5) Wild caves across the country closed to humans (mostly cavers) because of point 3.
6)WNS continues to be found in gated caves and mines, and caves closed to human visitation.
7) Bat to bat infection discovered in hibernacula, where most cavers do not go in winter.
8) More caves shut across the country, including Missouri. Two caves found with G.d and WNS: one a private land cave generally off-limits to cavers and the newest a gated bat cave with unbreached gate.
9)With the exception of Dunbar in TN, $how caves$ with only cursory screenings of visitors remain open.
10) Cavers who disinfected gear kicked off wild cave tour because they were "known cavers." Members of general public allowed to proceed on tour.

Therefore cavers must be major known vector of WNS and should report to disinfection chambers immediately.

If any of the above makes any sense as a logical "If -Then" series of statements please email me. I have a bridge to sell you. :rofl:


No, I don't want the bridge. Bats roost under bridges and I believe WNS has been spread by recreational bridgers. All bridgers should do the right thing and stay on their own damn side of the river until researchers have had a chance to study the problem. I feel secure in the knowledge that they'll save us and the bats from ourselves.

By the way, I somehow missed #10, "Cavers who disinfected gear kicked off wild cave tour because they were "known cavers." Members of general public allowed to proceed on tour." When and where did this happen?
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Re: Fungus serious threat to North American bats

Postby tncaver » May 16, 2010 9:14 pm

Teresa wrote:
ArCaver wrote:I was asking because Howe Cave seems to be cited as ground zero. There were some who said this was evidence of people bringing it in because Howe Caverns is heavily visited. Then I heard that photos had been taken as early as 2004 showing the telltale fungus and I wondered what cave they were from, or if there were any from earlier than that.


This is the mitigation scenario sequence which makes things insane:

1)Fungus discovered in Howe Caverns --heavily visited show cave.
2) Fungus discovered in nearby gated mine.
3) Cavers accused of bringing/spreading G.destructans spores/WNS because there was a caver event in upstate New York.
4) Cavers from Europe targeted, even though no cavers from Europe attended the caver event.
5) Wild caves across the country closed to humans (mostly cavers) because of point 3.
6)WNS continues to be found in gated caves and mines, and caves closed to human visitation.
7) Bat to bat infection discovered in hibernacula, where most cavers do not go in winter.
8) More caves shut across the country, including Missouri. Two caves found with G.d and WNS: one a private land cave generally off-limits to cavers and the newest a gated bat cave with unbreached gate.
9)With the exception of Dunbar in TN, $how caves$ with only cursory screenings of visitors remain open.
10) Cavers who disinfected gear kicked off wild cave tour because they were "known cavers." Members of general public allowed to proceed on tour.

Therefore cavers must be major known vector of WNS and should report to disinfection chambers immediately.

If any of the above makes any sense as a logical "If -Then" series of statements please email me. I have a bridge to sell you. :rofl:


The following scenarios make sense to me.

1)Fungus discovered in Howe Caverns --heavily visited show cave.
2) Fungus discovered in nearby gated mine.
3) Cavers accused of bringing/spreading G.destructans spores/WNS because there was a caver event in upstate New York.
4) Cavers from Europe targeted, even though no cavers from Europe attended the caver event.
5) Wild caves across the country closed to humans (mostly cavers) because of point 3.
6)WNS continues to be found in gated caves and mines, and caves closed to human visitation.
7) Bat to bat infection discovered in hibernacula, where most cavers do not go in winter.

And none of this is a reason to close all caves.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to North American bats

Postby cavergirl » May 17, 2010 5:56 pm

most recently confirmed WNS sites on BCI map

http://www.batcon.org/images/stories/WN ... eLarge.jpg
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Re: Fungus serious threat to North American bats

Postby tncaver » May 17, 2010 6:12 pm

cavergirl wrote:most recently confirmed WNS sites on BCI map

http://www.batcon.org/images/stories/WN ... eLarge.jpg


Check out that WNS link. It is amazing how accurately the WNS infections are following the natural migratory paths of the bats.
Human vector? Ridiculous!
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Re: Fungus serious threat to North American bats

Postby PYoungbaer » May 17, 2010 9:54 pm

Teresa wrote:
This is the mitigation scenario sequence which makes things insane:

1)Fungus discovered in Howe Caverns --heavily visited show cave.
2) Fungus discovered in nearby gated mine.
3) Cavers accused of bringing/spreading G.destructans spores/WNS because there was a caver event in upstate New York.
4) Cavers from Europe targeted, even though no cavers from Europe attended the caver event.
5) Wild caves across the country closed to humans (mostly cavers) because of point 3.
6)WNS continues to be found in gated caves and mines, and caves closed to human visitation.
7) Bat to bat infection discovered in hibernacula, where most cavers do not go in winter.
8) More caves shut across the country, including Missouri. Two caves found with G.d and WNS: one a private land cave generally off-limits to cavers and the newest a gated bat cave with unbreached gate.
9)With the exception of Dunbar in TN, $how caves$ with only cursory screenings of visitors remain open.
10) Cavers who disinfected gear kicked off wild cave tour because they were "known cavers." Members of general public allowed to proceed on tour.

Therefore cavers must be major known vector of WNS and should report to disinfection chambers immediately.

If any of the above makes any sense as a logical "If -Then" series of statements please email me. I have a bridge to sell you. :rofl:


Theresa: only in an effort to keep the facts straight (because I agree with where you're coming from):

1. WNS has not been found in Howe Caverns. It was found in Howe's Cave, the non-commercial section of Howe Caverns, which sits in an operating limestone quarry. It is not regularly visited.
2. Untrue. I am not aware of any gated mine near here, and I cave a lot in that area (including yesterday).
3. True that cavers were accused because of misinformation about the National Caves and Karst Management Symposium meeting held in Albany, NY. True that no Europeans attended. Also a fact that the only "cave" trip was a surface geology tour to NSS and Northeastern Cave Conservancy sites to see management techniques - nothing underground except the commercial Howe Caverns tour and reception at the end of the day.
4. True that European cavers were targeted, also completely unjustified (see # 3).
5. True. Weekly biologist conference calls provided the opportunity - unchallenged until a few months ago - for this rumor to gain legs.
6. True. Clearly, WNS has gotten into many places unaided by humans. That is unambiguous.
7. Part one: false: bat to bat transmission proven in the laboratory (USGS, Wisconsin); part two: true: most cavers know to avoid hibernating bats - advice you will find rampant on grotto and cave conservancy websites and throughout caving literature.
8. Part one: true: more caves are being closed across the country; Part two - I don't know - I haven't seen the specifics about an unbreached gated cave, but so what? We know WNS can get into such a site unaided by humans.
9. True; however, the National Caves Association has just put out a brochure (based closely on the NSS brochure) and poster on WNS to educate its members and the cave visitors about WNS and is raising money for WNS research. Some wild cave tours have been suspended, and dedicated gear for others is seen more and more. Still, the only closed commercial cave to my knowledge is the state of Tennessee-owned Dunbar Cave.
10. Huh? What? Where? When? I missed this, too. If this occurred, it's outrageous. PM me, please.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to North American bats

Postby Teresa » May 18, 2010 12:08 am

I stand gratefully corrected by Peter. However, even on this board, those "factual errors" are repeated over and over...

But the point remains: Missouri has the 2nd largest number of known caves in the nation. Within 3 weeks' time, about another 800 caves have been put off limits to cavers-- all on public land, amongst the most popular recreational caves in the state and generally without any interaction between agencies and organized cavers, who to this point, have been some of their most loyal citizen volunteer-constituents, and with little regard for anything in the caves but the bats.

We're still punch-drunk over here, staggering around right now, and relatively and justifiably angry over being lumped in with cave vandals and the general public. I've personally been told,"Get over it, it's just a hobby, anyway." People making the decisions (in most cases ultimately political decisions, based on erroneous lemming theory and groupthink) don't get it. But we're also not the silent types around here.

This all could have been avoided if people who have been friends for decades had just talked to each other before the crisis emerged. But the cavers are talking to agencies and not getting answers, so it's hard to believe that anyone is actually listening. My dad had two sayings to this effect: "My mind is made up. Do not confuse me with the facts." and "When I want your opinion, I will give it to you." I don't think most cavers are buying either one.

Unless we keep rattling the cages, the keepers will never listen. I learned that long ago.
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Re: Fungus serious threat to North American bats

Postby tncaver » May 18, 2010 9:50 am

Hailes Cave and Howe Cave in NY are the two best known early sites for WNS. Although there were four sites in NY listed early on.
Shindle Iron Mine in Pennsylvania may have been the first gated mine discovered with WNS in December, 2008.
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