Hm...

This is a forum intended only for discussion of White Nose Syndrome.

Moderator: Moderators

Hm...

Postby GroundquestMSA » Jun 23, 2015 9:06 pm

In the June issue of Tagline (Chattanooga Grotto), Carolina Shrewsbury writes that, "There are countless arguments against free access to caves, and the loudest one is the spread of White-Nose Syndrome"

Is this an accurate claim? If not, is it considered productive to engage in the dissemination of inaccuracy in the name of minimizing impact? I think not, especially after being personally affected, over the past week, by the negative consequences of such behavior. During an effort to initiate the survey of some undocumented KY caves, I was told by the landowner that he had been informed by cavers that because of WNS it was illegal to go in caves.

Mrs. Shrewsbury also says that , "We do not want people outside of our specific scientific community to know where caves are or enter them if they happen to find an entrance."

The NSS, a "scientific community"? This is an increasingly tenuous designation. Certainly many scientific aspects remain, but are supported by the great minority of NSS members. Indeed, days are coming in which the NSS, if it wishes to exist at all, will be forced to shift much of its focus from science to cave acquisition/management and enabling recreation.
User avatar
GroundquestMSA
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1345
Joined: May 5, 2011 1:32 pm
  

Re: Hm...

Postby NZcaver » Jun 24, 2015 3:32 am

Last I checked, bats don't heed cave closures. And they are the ones who spread WNS.

Accurate claim? I think not.
User avatar
NZcaver
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 6320
Joined: Sep 7, 2005 2:05 am
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Name: Jansen
NSS #: 50665RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: CCG
  

Re: Hm...

Postby batrotter » Jun 24, 2015 7:05 am

GroundquestMSA wrote:In the June issue of Tagline (Chattanooga Grotto), Carolina Shrewsbury writes that, "There are countless arguments against free access to caves, and the loudest one is the spread of White-Nose Syndrome"


Let me get this straight, a grotto is letting a member editorialize a false premise related to WNS? A caver is actively trying to keep others cavers from going caving? Someone tell me that I misunderstood this quote.
batrotter
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 527
Joined: Sep 6, 2005 9:20 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana
Name: Bruce Trotter
NSS #: 27849RL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Indiana Cave Survey
  

Re: Hm...

Postby graveleye » Jun 24, 2015 7:31 am

I haven't read it in context, but I think in the non-caving world of low information folks who believe everything that the CBD feeds the newspaper, then that statement is probably correct.
ad astra per aspera

http://www.myspace.com/jamthecontrols

The views expressed in this post are not necessarily those of any organization I am affiliated with.

Become a sustaining member of the SCCI
User avatar
graveleye
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2934
Joined: Mar 14, 2006 11:12 am
Location: Georgia, USA
Name: Kevin Glenn
NSS #: 57238RL
  

Re: Hm...

Postby spider » Jun 24, 2015 8:16 am

"Loudest" does not always imply "most correct."
Cave softly,
Galen "Spider" Hekhuis
NSS 9294 RL GWA
spider
Frequent Poster
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Jan 27, 2015 7:01 pm
NSS #: 9294
Primary Grotto Affiliation: FSS
  

Re: Hm...

Postby GroundquestMSA » Jun 24, 2015 9:27 am

Bruce, I think the idea is that many cavers want to keep "non-cavers" from caving. It's a little bit dizzying, but not as bad as it may sound. The article is largely about exhibiting cave-related art to the public, and this passage is addressing concerns that some have with increasing awareness of caves via such an exhibition.

Good points graveleye and spider, I may have missed the point. After rereading though, I'm not sure... Here is some context:

"Educating the public about, and increasing their awareness of, the underground is an emotionally charged area for members of the National Speleological Society as well as other caving organizations world-wide. We do not want people outside of our specific scientific community to know where caves are or enter them if they happen to find an entrance. We are concerned that bringing attention to caves will encourage visitation by people who are not trained in proper techniques, safety and conservation ethic, and will cause unnecessary impact to the delicate cave environment. There are countless arguments against free access to caves, and the loudest one is the spread of White-Nose Syndrome, a fungal infection that has wiped out huge populations of bats in some caves in the Northeastern United States. The fallout from the infection has caused serious impact on bat populations in the caves where it occurs, and bats are essential to the function of the North American ecosystem"


???
User avatar
GroundquestMSA
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1345
Joined: May 5, 2011 1:32 pm
  

Re: Hm...

Postby Wm Shrewsbury » Jun 24, 2015 12:56 pm

Below is the entire article, minus the photo of Carolina hanging the SpeleoArt sign, of course. She says it was not meant to say we carry WNS or anything like that between caves, but that, as a general rule, cavers do not publish cave locations and that most of what the general population has heard about caves is how bats are dying off due to WNS. It was written in 2010 and published in the NSS News, back when we were not as educated as we are now about how WNS could be transported, and republished this month (5 years later) in the local Grotto's newsletter. It's an art-based article, of course.

We're off to Karst-O-Rama so it may be a few days before we'll see any response. On to her article, in full, below...
:cavechat:
Wm

Cultivating Creativity within the National Speleological Society (by Carolina Shrewsbury)

In October 2010, Kriste Lindberg and Bob Vandeventer introduced cave dwelling creatures to the public at a Fine Arts Gallery in Indiana.

They used a simple left/right brain theory of logic verses creativity by utilizing a popular national annual event, when people are looking for creative ideas, to teach people about biospeleology. Bob introduced caves, what biospeleologists do in caves and why it is important for us to learn why. Kriste presented a demonstration of how to use those creatures as an art project. People left knowing much more about the cave creatures they display at Halloween and an understanding why they need to be aware of their protection and survival.

Although literalists will argue that logic does not “reside” on the left side of the brain just as creativity is not “located” on the right side of the brain, this model provides an excellent metaphor for our purposes not only with participants but also within our own thinking. Speleologists practicing art in this scientific field have been able to communicate interests within speleology by breaking down barriers between “logic” (science) and creativity of caves.

We discovered that reproducing an image created a deeper bond between what we have seen with what we know, thereby enhancing our need to educate ourselves further on our favored subjects and protect them.

Educating the public about, and increasing their awareness of, the underground is an emotionally charged area for members of the National Speleological Society as well as other caving organizations world-wide. We do not want people outside of our specific scientific community to know where caves are or enter them if they happen to find an entrance. We are concerned that bringing attention to caves will encourage visitation by people who are not trained in proper techniques, safety and conservation ethic, and will cause unnecessary impact to the delicate cave environment. There are countless arguments against free access to caves, and the loudest one is the spread of White-Nose Syndrome, a fungal infection that has wiped out huge populations of bats in some caves in the Northeastern United States. The fallout from the infection has caused serious impact on bat populations in the caves where it occurs, and bats are essential to the function of the North American ecosystem, a fact not well understood by the general population.

Our members understand that changes in technology over the last 50 years have changed the way we communicate. The visibility of information that was once confined only to those who needed to know is now very easily accessible. We have portable electronic gadgets that tell us EVERYTHING! That means speleological organizations have an obligation to promote better education at a level at which everyone can access, and be informed that perhaps their preconceived notions of caves are not necessarily correct. Education should expand to encompass what caves and cave science means, including how to promote cave awareness in meaningful ways.

One of those ways could be to promote the creative use of cave science as a medium to develop a bond between individuals and what they learn about caves. Also promoted could be the bonds created by the people with whom they work or socialize while experiencing the cave environment. The value and importance of caves will become a natural transition between crafting information to establishing understanding.

The efforts of artists involved in collaborative projects have produced comradeship between participants, created ideas for teachers to introduce new class plans for their schools, raised money for equipment for the NSS Salons, educated artists about medium use and followed up with enthusiasm to enter to exhibit in the Fine Arts Salon. Most importantly, they have interested educators enough to prove that what we are practicing not only develops cooperative group activity, but also has a subliminal affect that raises awareness of the subject being used. The emotional experience of the speleological art projects has brought the participants a closer understanding of the subject. There is a deeper connection between what one has seen and what one does with it when translated into another medium. The activity consumes time, and time produces thought. When reproducing time consuming thoughts in groups, there is a natural drawing of closeness and familiarity. These attachments, emotional and experiential, bring a bond close enough for them to want to protect and preserve their subject because it has now become their own.

(This last paragraph was added by the editor of the Chattanooga Grotto TAGLine) At the NSS Convention this year in Missouri, Carolina Shrewsbury starts her annual SpeleoArt Workshop, which has been part of the Fine Arts Salon as an activity to create enthusiasm and cooperative ideas for speleo-education around our country. There will be a field trip to Railroad Cave nearby the Convention campground, and the rest of the week will solidify the participants’ knowledge of that cave, which will finish with a collaborative artwork based on the cave topography, to be continued after Convention for preparation to show at the Convention 2016.
Cave Softly and Carry a Long Rope - TAG!

Wm Shrewsbury
:bat sticker:
Wm Shrewsbury
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 259
Joined: Feb 11, 2006 10:25 pm
Location: Harrison, TN
Name: Wm Shrewsbury
NSS #: 22677RL, FE
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Chattanooga Grotto
  

Re: Hm...

Postby driggs » Jun 24, 2015 1:02 pm

Carolina Shrewsbury in the June issue of Tagline (Chattanooga Grotto) wrote:
"Educating the public about, and increasing their awareness of, the underground is an emotionally charged area for members of the National Speleological Society as well as other caving organizations world-wide. We do not want people outside of our specific scientific community to know where caves are or enter them if they happen to find an entrance. We are concerned that bringing attention to caves will encourage visitation by people who are not trained in proper techniques, safety and conservation ethic, and will cause unnecessary impact to the delicate cave environment. There are countless arguments against free access to caves, and the loudest one is the spread of White-Nose Syndrome, a fungal infection that has wiped out huge populations of bats in some caves in the Northeastern United States. The fallout from the infection has caused serious impact on bat populations in the caves where it occurs, and bats are essential to the function of the North American ecosystem"



Yes, we as a Society decided exactly this at some point in the past. Ever notice how NSS Convention and SERA guidebooks stopped printing locations and directions to caves in the 1990's?

And I'd agree that WNS is indeed the loudest argument against uninformed caving. I'm sure every one of us has had a grandma or aunt point out an article in some mainstream newspaper or magazine about the "killer bat disease"; ever have your grandma call to tell you she'd heard that you shouldn't break stalactites or read a NY Times article saying you should carry three sources of light?


GroundquestMSA wrote:I was told by the landowner that he had been informed by cavers that because of WNS it was illegal to go in caves.


While you can't put 100% faith in the restated facts of a "telephone game" such as this, it is absolutely true that on some federal land it is illegal to go in caves because of WNS. For example, entering a cave on the Monongahela National Forest of WV is punishable by a fine of up to $5000 or imprisonment. Every cave on every National Forest of the Southeast is similarly closed, though the closure order doesn't state an explicit fine amount.

When these are the "management practices" visible to the public, is it any surprise that they jump to the conclusion that caving is flat-out forbidden? :down:
User avatar
driggs
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Sep 12, 2005 9:40 pm
Location: State of Jefferson
Name: David A. Riggs
NSS #: 56189
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Monongahela
  

Re: Hm...

Postby GroundquestMSA » Jun 24, 2015 1:10 pm

William, thanks for the clarification. Perhaps I was too easily confused, and I was certainly not aware that this material had been written so long ago.

Dave, you're right of course that caving is in some places illegal. However, this private KY landowner seemed to sincerely believe that this extended to his place, and cited his communication with ESSO grotto as the reason. :shrug:
User avatar
GroundquestMSA
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1345
Joined: May 5, 2011 1:32 pm
  

Re: Hm...

Postby ohiocaver » Jun 26, 2015 10:37 am

Yes, USFS has draconian fines for caving....$5000 per individual who goes into a cave on a national forest. HOWEVER, it's a lot cheaper if you cave with a group. The fine is $10,000 for a group and -- say you bring a dozen friends along underground -- that cuts the per-person fine to under $800.
Gives a whole new meaning to "pay to cave", doesn't it? :laughing:
[url=http://postimg.org/image/lex35gcbv/][img]http://s9.postimg.org/lex35gcbv/curt_Bryants_Cave_Indiana.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://postimg.org/image/eta4ctvar/][img]http://s21.postimg.org/eta4ctvar/cn_oh_isl_coils_cave_curt_sketch.jpg[/img][/url]
User avatar
ohiocaver
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Mar 5, 2009 6:34 pm
Location: Ohio
Name: curt harler
NSS #: 22735RCL
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Cleveland Grotto
  

Re: Hm...

Postby RedonRope » Jul 2, 2015 10:18 am

As the new designer of the Tagline, I am a little offended that everyone would jump to conclusions about this article. I am never on Cavechat unless I am looking for something in particular or someone brings something like this to my attention. Now I know why. I am glad WM cleared it up.
RedonRope
New Poster
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Jul 2, 2015 10:11 am
NSS #: 63379
Primary Grotto Affiliation: Chattanooga
  

Re: Hm...

Postby GroundquestMSA » Jul 2, 2015 4:18 pm

RedonRope wrote:As the new designer of the Tagline, I am a little offended that everyone would jump to conclusions about this article. I am never on Cavechat unless I am looking for something in particular or someone brings something like this to my attention. Now I know why. I am glad WM cleared it up.


Amber, this is my fault as I'm the one who made the initial jump. Despite the clarification, I believe that the article could have been improved by a partial edit, especially since it was being republished after so long. Not the end of the world... I'm often easily confused.
User avatar
GroundquestMSA
NSS Hall Of Fame Poster
 
Posts: 1345
Joined: May 5, 2011 1:32 pm
  


Return to White Nose Syndrome (WNS)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron