WNS Confirmed in Mammoth Cave NP

[PYoungbaer]

Here's the MACA NP link: http://www.nps.gov/maca/parknews/nr-wnsinparkbats.htm

One of the links at the bottom of that page is the MACA NP WNS Response Plan, if you're interested in those details.

The Official Press release is being posted on the NSS' WNS website.

[cavergirl]

The article links to a new WNS map
http://static.whitenosesyndrome.org/sit ... 13_2ds.jpg
I notice there is also a newly confirmed county in SE Kentucky. any info on that?

[PYoungbaer]

cavergirl,

No. Cal hasn't sent the updated map yet, but I have a message in to him. I suspect that he was waiting for the press release embargo deadline to pass, which only occurred at noon. As soon as we get the info, we'll post it.

[PYoungbaer]

Cal Butchkoski reported it is Bell County, Ky. I know the state has a nature preserve there, and an Indiana bat site. If that's the location, it will be up to the state to make the announcement. I do have an inquiry in to them.

[Cheryl Jones]

Long Cave is not connected to Mammoth Cave and has not been open to visitors for more than 80 years.

We screen all visitors before they go on a cave tour and visitors walk across decontamination mats as they exit their tours.

Yet the WNS protocol calls for 10 minute immersion. Anyone know what the chemical is in the mat and if research been done that shows that the quick-dip system kills G.d.?

[PYoungbaer]

The mats use a Lysol IC mix, one of the substances in the decon protocols. Now, those were developed prior to the off-label use issues last summer. Dr. Hazel Barton has been studying the mats and the carrying of spores by the public and others in Mammoth Cave, and had a grant from the National Park to evaluate the mats. I haven't seen any final report, but saw an interim report (posted on the USFWS wns website Barton Interim Report July 2011) which said:

Follow`on work from this proposal includes a grant from the National Park Service to develop
decontamination biomats for tourist trails. At this point we’ve( determined the average number of
spores that a person picks up on the cave tours and, using this as a worst`case`scenario (that is, all
spores represent G. destructans), developing a method of decontamination. This method includes
physical removal of spores and chemical treatment to kill the spores in the time taken to walk across a
decontamination mat. Using this data, it’s clear that the current biomats at MACA would not be
effective at killing all G. destructans spores.

I do not know if the methods or substances used on the MACA biomats (also in use at a Fort in Delaware) have been changed or improved since this interim report.

[BrianC]

Does anyone know exactly what speed at which WNS is spreading? It would appear that it is moving fast especially since we are seeing at least one or two new caves each and every year.

[Crockett]

Bell County, Kentucky has a wide variety but has no known significantly large groups of bats living in caves. Two caves in Bell have been monitored repeatedly by the state contractor: Ice Box and Pit Up Straight Creek. When the state releases the information it will likely be one of these caves, most likely Ice Box because it is easier to access. Both caves are on private land. Bell County has a significant area of land, about 50%, within state and federal preserves including state parks, forests, and preserves plus Cumberland Gap National Historical Park. It is possible that WNS was confirmed from a bat found in one or more of the caves within the state nature preserve on the north slope of Pine Mountain, but not likely. Indiana bats in significant numbers are not known to be in caves with entrances in Bell County although Gap Cave with entrances in Lee County, Virginia, adjacent to Bell, has a group of Indianas that winter inside an entrance a few hundred feet from Bell County and the cave extends into Bell. That group is monitored by Virginia and the National Park Service. The more widely known groups of Indiana bats in the SE Kentucky area are in Harlan and Letcher County. Line Fork Cave is inside Kingdom Come State Park and Green Cave is on private land that was proposed to be a state nature preserve but failed in negotiations with the owners.

It will be interesting to see how Kentucky officials handle the release of the Bell County information. I expect to hear it next Wednesday or Thursday. WNS has been confirmed here many years later than predicted. I suppose that is a good thing if anything good can come from it. As cavers we have assumed that WNS was here and acted accordingly without any pronouncement from the state.

The compelling question is, if closing caves is intended to slow the spread of WNS and give more time, what has been done with that time?

[PYoungbaer]

Update on the MACA biomats: My understanding is that Mammoth Cave NP has a new contractor that is working on using different substances than Lysol IC. You may recall that this past summer the USFWS had to amend its WNS decon protocols due to issues with off-label use of Lysol IC and other chemicals as a "pesticide." I do not know if any change has taken place yet. If anyone goes there, it would be interesting to find out.

[PYoungbaer]

It will be interesting to see how Kentucky officials handle the release of the Bell County information. I expect to hear it next Wednesday or Thursday. WNS has been confirmed here many years later than predicted. I suppose that is a good thing if anything good can come from it. As cavers we have assumed that WNS was here and acted accordingly without any pronouncement from the state.

The compelling question is, if closing caves is intended to slow the spread of WNS and give more time, what has been done with that time?

Crockett,

I've spoken with the KY official who filed the report. She confirmed a Northern Long-eared bat with WNS from a small cave in Bell County. They are working on the details and expected to share information soon. I don't know but suspect they may be working on more than just an announcement. If you look at the KY Dept. of Fish and Wildlife Resources web page on WNS, it hasn't been updated in almost two years. I wouldn't be surprised to see some changes there,now that KY appears to be more affected.

Regarding your "compelling question," I read that as more of a rhetorical question. If it's not, please elaborate.

[wyandottecaver]

Crockett,

With the time they have:
1) closed thousands of caves administratively
2) used ESA/WNS money to buy privately owned caves (to close them)
3) Gated dozens of private caves through "conservation easments"
4) Spent millions to hire extra FWS WNS staff
5) Spent millions to write FWS WNS related documents
6) conducted research studies, virtually none of which have provided actionable data that slows WNS, helps bats, or provides quantifiable data on human transmission.
7) revised the guidelines (now pending approval by the rubber stampers) for how the "presence" of Endangered bats are confirmed to include a computer "hearing" a bat-like sound.
8) in Indiana have indicated that the harvesting of timber (from any forestland in the state) may subject the logger to arrest by USFWS law enforcement.
9) ohh and they have figured out WNS kills bats, they can't do anything about it, and closing caves doesn't do anything about WNS but makes a great case for getting money and exerting influence.

[BrianC]

Crockett,

With the time they have:
1) closed thousands of caves administratively
2) used ESA/WNS money to buy privately owned caves (to close them)
3) Gated dozens of private caves through "conservation easments"
4) Spent millions to hire extra FWS WNS staff
5) Spent millions to write FWS WNS related documents
6) conducted research studies, virtually none of which have provided actionable data that slows WNS, helps bats, or provides quantifiable data on human transmission.
7) revised the guidelines (now pending approval by the rubber stampers) for how the "presence" of Endangered bats are confirmed to include a computer "hearing" a bat-like sound.
8) in Indiana have indicated that the harvesting of timber (from any forestland in the state) may subject the logger to arrest by USFWS law enforcement.
9) ohh and they have figured out WNS kills bats, they can't do anything about it, and closing caves doesn't do anything about WNS but makes a great case for getting money and exerting influence.

Wyandottecaver, about five years ago your expertise and knowledge would have helped make a difference in how response to the horrible wns disease was handled, and you didn't want on board. Now you are just blowing in the wind!

[wyandottecaver]

Brian,

You have always held a single opinion based on what you wanted regardless of the actual knowledge available. I feel I have taken a stance that was based on best available solutions based on the best available data at the time...which means that yes, I changed my mind to fit the facts.

Regardless, while there have been several successes at the State and local levels, neither I, Peter, the NSS, or ANYONE beyond a very small group in the USFWS have actually influenced WNS policy at the Federal level at all that I can see.

In the early years with a limited infection area the best available solution was to completely shut down traffic to caves (since human transmission probably/could have been a factor based on what we knew) which would have lowered the potential number of human vectors while killing as many bats in affected areas as possible would have lowered the potential number of bat vectors.

As the infection area increased but the human vector question wasn't really answered, closing caves was the best we could do with what we knew. Later it became obvious that human transmission was not a significant factor, decon did not work, WNS was endemic across the east, nor was there any indication of a "cure" that could actually be implemented. Thus the best solution based on the best data was to do nothing and pray.

Of course that all assumes we want to help bats, help caves, help caving, and implement common sense solutions. I don't believe those shaping Federal WNS policy have ANY of those goals in mind.

[tncaver]

I don't believe those shaping Federal WNS policy have ANY of those goals in mind.

I don't either.

[Crockett]

My question was not rhetorical but I don't have the resources to elaborate in detail at this time. The USFW Service should be compelled to offer an accounting of what they did with what they took.