Cavechat.org

Mudduck wrote:[quote="

We have ourselves to blame. The lack of a unified voice for cavers in the beginning was our downfall but I cannot blame everyone since in the beginning we did not know much about WNS. All we can hope for is to learn from our mistakes and not make them again. The NSS failed its members (at least in the beginning) and cavers themselves drove each other apart with differing views which severely damaged our public image.

Waving the white flag changes nothing. Same as in the beginning. If you let the CBD gain ground we may lose more than what we already have.
Do I detect multiple weenies in the audience? I believe I do. Same problem as in the beginning. A lack of willingness to do anything. Pitiful.
The NSS should also petition the White House and tell the President why the CBD's plan is just plain wrong.

Don't any of you cave in the Western half of the US? You know, where most of the caves on public lands are?

On the whole, most are still open for caving last time I checked.

NZcaver wrote:Don't any of you cave in the Western half of the US? You know, where most of the caves on public lands are?

On the whole, most are still open for caving last time I checked.

I suspect many registered caves on public lands are in the EAST. Currently most are closed due to WNS. What makes you think the CBD will
stop pushing for cave closures only on public owned land? They are fanatics and will do what they can to twist data just like the USFWS has, to keep caves closed and/or get more closed. If we don't fight back we could lose even more access than we have now. If early settlers in the USA had your mindset we
might all be paying our taxes to the Queen of England and we would have even fewer rights than we do now. At least we do still have the right to vote and write our legislators as well as the President.

I live in the East and I cave in the East but if the CBD gets it's way, no public caves will be open any where.

Here is my counter petition: please sign it!

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/! ... c/YX8Bjp3F

David Grimes wrote:I have to agree with Brian to an extent. I stop short of waving the white flag and I will never give up all hope but realistically it looks like recreational caving will be on private property only at least for quite a while.

We have ourselves to blame. The lack of a unified voice for cavers in the beginning was our downfall but I cannot blame everyone since in the beginning we did not know much about WNS. All we can hope for is to learn from our mistakes and not make them again. The NSS failed its members (at least in the beginning) and cavers themselves drove each other apart with differing views which severely damaged our public image.

You are 100% correct except for private property caving, It too can be severely curtailed if the ESA continues grabbing up whatever they can. I only hope that the NSS will continue to look ahead to the future and see what lies ahead.

Brian you are right about that but I was assuming if nothing else changed in the meantime. Private caves are in just as much danger of being closed as public caves but at least they are harder to find and more difficult to restrict in legal terms.

I primarily cave in southern Indiana which currently all public caves are closed. Most of my favorite caves to visit were on public land and the closures have severely hurt interest in caving by new Cavers, partly because of caver secrecy and just overall difficulty of gaining access to many caves. I used to take groups of new Cavers to public caves nearly every weekend, now my trips must be more thought out due to the need to contact landowners or managers instead of filling out a permit.

Right now everyone needs to be signing John Dunham's petition and spreading the word, it's at least a start.

Don't any of you cave in the Western half of the US? You know, where most of the caves on public lands are?

On the whole, most are still open for caving last time I checked.

Not in the Rocky Mountain Region. Probably 60-70% of the caves in CO are on FS land and administratively closed.
We may have the worst cave access situation in the country, although it could always be worse... at least I'm not in Kansas.

Extremeophile wrote:

Don't any of you cave in the Western half of the US? You know, where most of the caves on public lands are?

On the whole, most are still open for caving last time I checked.

Not in the Rocky Mountain Region. Probably 60-70% of the caves in CO are on FS land and administratively closed.
We may have the worst cave access situation in the country, although it could always be worse... at least I'm not in Kansas.

Derek, you can still hop on that plane and fly to KY or TN to get your caving fix. At least for now...until the CBD screws caving up in the entire USA.
If that happens I suspect there will be lots of underground cavers.

Extremeophile wrote:Not in the Rocky Mountain Region. Probably 60-70% of the caves in CO are on FS land and administratively closed.
We may have the worst cave access situation in the country, although it could always be worse... at least I'm not in Kansas.

This will make you happy
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=13892

Cheryl

tncaver wrote:If early settlers in the USA had your mindset we might all be paying our taxes to the Queen of England and we would have even fewer rights than we do now.

Wait... what mindset?? What does that gibberish have to do with anything? Taxes over yonder aren't paid to the Queen, they are paid to a democratically elected government. And as far as I know, across the pond most caves on Crown Lands are open to caving.

Of course I think the CBD are extremist fraudsters who need to be stopped. My previous comment was in response to Brian saying "sorry folks, this has been over for some time." The current situation in Colorado, the Rocky Mountains and a few other pockets notwithstanding, vast tracts of the western US are still wide open for caving on public lands. I understand Brian's point, but I don't think it's "been over for some time" on a national level. I don't think we (cavers) should surrender at all, east coast or west coast.

NZcaver wrote:

tncaver wrote:If early settlers in the USA had your mindset we might all be paying our taxes to the Queen of England and we would have even fewer rights than we do now.

Wait... what mindset?? What does that gibberish have to do with anything? Taxes over yonder aren't paid to the Queen, they are paid to a democratically elected government. And as far as I know, across the pond most caves on Crown Lands are open to caving.

Of course I think the CBD are extremist fraudsters who need to be stopped. My previous comment was in response to Brian saying "sorry folks, this has been over for some time." The current situation in Colorado, the Rocky Mountains and a few other pockets notwithstanding, vast tracts of the western US are still wide open for caving on public lands. I understand Brian's point, but I don't think it's "been over for some time" on a national level. I don't think we (cavers) should surrender at all, east coast or west coast.

Then perhaps we had a misunderstanding, NZ. I am glad you have an open mind. Cheryl's post above yours gives signs of hope for opening caves in Colorado. Of course I won't believe it until I see it, but I hope to see it.

Cheryl Jones wrote:

Extremeophile wrote:Not in the Rocky Mountain Region. Probably 60-70% of the caves in CO are on FS land and administratively closed.
We may have the worst cave access situation in the country, although it could always be worse... at least I'm not in Kansas.

This will make you happy
http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=13892

Cheryl

Perhaps I should have give up long ago, it might have persuaded someone to do this earlier. Hmmmm! Anyway, this gives me some new hope that common sense has come into the picture. Not going to hold my breath though, The CBD will surely go crazy with some legal mumbo jumbo and sue someone over this. If only the Federal level will stand their ground and see the CBD for what it is. Hmmmmmmm!