Cavechat.org

http://whitenosesyndrome.org/resource/n ... v-03152012

It includes the very convenient hot water disinfectant option:

Submersion in hot water - Effective at sustained temperatures ≥50ºC (122ºF) for 15 minutes

I know there was a mention in a past thread of a MO DNR employee discounting the validity of the hot water method, and instructing his co-workers in a memo to use washing machine sanitizing cycles; USFWS addresses that in the new document:

Although commercially available washing machines with sanitation cycles often sustain desirable water temperatures to properly disinfect gear, the use of these machines for disinfection should not occur until the efficacy for killing the conidia of G.d. can be demonstrated.

John Lovaas wrote:http://whitenosesyndrome.org/resource/national-wns-decontamination-protocol-v-03152012

It includes the very convenient hot water treatment:

Submersion in hot water - Effective at sustained temperatures ≥50ºC (122ºF) for 15 minutes

I know there was a mention in a past thread of a MO DNR employee discounting the validity of the hot water method, and instructing his co-workers in a memo to use washing machine sanitizing cycles; USFWS addresses that in the new document:

Although commercially available washing machines with sanitation cycles often sustain desirable water temperatures to properly disinfect gear, the use of these machines for disinfection should not occur until the efficacy for killing the conidia of G.d. can be demonstrated.

Sounds like lawyer CYA to me...or a nearly perfect example of Catch-22. Kudos to the writer!

How about plain English: If it's submerged in water at greater than 50 C (122 F) for more than 15 minutes, you're good.

PYoungbaer wrote:How about plain English: If it's submerged in water at greater than 50 C (122 F) for more than 15 minutes, you're good.

Couldn't get much simpler than that

However... if it's that simple, why hold onto the recommendation for compartmentalizing gear between regions? Given all that we know to date, is this outdated precaution still really necessary?

So a washing machine wont work, but a 5 gallon bucket full of say.......150* water out of my hot water heater will?

Chads93GT wrote:So a washing machine wont work, but a 5 gallon bucket full of say.......150* water out of my hot water heater will?

A washing machine with a 15 minute soak cycle, and water hot enough at the start of the cycle to still be at 122F at the end of the cycle, will work just fine for the disinfectant portion of the decon protocol.

I guess they are questioning the effectiveness of washing machines that have sanitary cycles. I know the water temp is 158F, but I don't know how long the cycle is. I've actually been shopping for a new washer and dryer, and have seen a few with NSF certified sanitary cycles- but I can't get any info on the cycle length.

I haven't been able to find an actual copy of the spec(NSF Protocol P172), but I did find an excerpt from an abstract:

"This protocol establishes the minimum requirements for the sanitization performance of residential clothes washers used in private homes. The methods described in this protocol simulate significant contamination of a small number of clothing items in an otherwise typical laundry load. The protocol requirements include testing to ensure that at least 99.9% of test organisms are removed when the washer's sanitization cycle is selected, and there is no carryover of test organisms between loads after the sanitization cycle is used."

I found another reference that indicated the test organisms were household bacteria.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, the load of cave gear I washed last night didn't resemble a 'few significantly contaminated items in an otherwise typical laundry load'. Is the cycle long enough to denature the spores? Do Gd spores cling more tightly to clothing than the test organisms used to determine the spec? Who knows. So a study ought to be done, I suppose. I'm really surprised a study hasn't been done already, because there are a number of people using sanitary cycle machines already...

That being said, I'm pretty confident a sanitary cycle washer will prove to be effective against Gd. But a 5 gallon bucket and some hot water is way cheaper than a new washing machine with a NSF sanitary cycle option.

And please remember that this new hot water treatment is the "disinfectant" portion of the two-stage "clean" and "disinfect" that makes up the decon protocol. In other words, you are still supposed to do the pressure wash or scrub and surfactant (e.g. Woolite) cleaning stage in order to remove all dirt, mud, and organic material. Once that stage is completed, then the hot water stage can be used to disinfect, same as the Lysol IC or bleach stage. But it's still a two-stage process, plus rinse and dry.

I only repeat this because it seemed that a casual reader (do we have any of those on Cave Chat?) might think that just a hot washing machine would do the trick in one fell swoop. Nope.

PYoungbaer wrote:And please remember that this new hot water treatment is the "disinfectant" portion of the two-stage "clean" and "disinfect" that makes up the decon protocol. In other words, you are still supposed to do the pressure wash or scrub and surfactant (e.g. Woolite) cleaning stage in order to remove all dirt, mud, and organic material. Once that stage is completed, then the hot water stage can be used to disinfect, same as the Lysol IC or bleach stage. But it's still a two-stage process, plus rinse and dry.

I only repeat this because it seemed that a casual reader (do we have any of those on Cave Chat?) might think that just a hot washing machine would do the trick in one fell swoop. Nope.

seconded - Clean, THEN disinfect.

And God willing, we'll all stop smelling like the cleaning aisle at Wal-Mart. :)

LOL. So, the USFWS says that hot water is good. BUT until they have TESTED your specific method of applying hot water then it doesn't count?

wyandottecaver wrote:LOL. So, the USFWS says that hot water is good. BUT until they have TESTED your specific method of applying hot water then it doesn't count?

If I'm to interpret an email I received today correctly, sanitizing washers have already been tested and that line in the current document should have been struck or amended- and will be addressed. But that's my interpretation of the email I got ;-)

A cooler would probably work better than a 5 gallon bucket. And, I still think a dishwasher will do a fine job of making cave gear hot and wet for 15 minutes.

NZcaver wrote:However... if it's that simple, why hold onto the recommendation for compartmentalizing gear between regions? Given all that we know to date, is this outdated precaution still really necessary?

I have been asking this same question. I have found that it is neither a popular nor politically correct question.

So what about using the hot water treatment for ropes and webbing? The only option in the new USFWS protocols is to use chemicals, as before.

Cheryl

Cheryl Jones wrote:So what about using the hot water treatment for ropes and webbing? The only option in the new USFWS protocols is to use chemicals, as before.

This would be a question for the rope manufacturers, as it applies to the safety of the materials after stress testing. We know the labs say it will kill the fungus, but will it kill the rope or webbing? We don't know. To date, to my knowledge, and despite several efforts and communications a few years ago, the only stress results post disinfecting treatment that I am aware of remains the Sterling Rope tests: http://www.caves.org/WNS/Sterling%20Results.pdf

It would be great if someone wanted to systematically ask all the manufacturers about the new hot water standard and their products. Eliah Kagan did a whole round of these inquiries a while back, and I've seen several communications on the earlier decon protocols among cavers, researchers, and rope companies, but no results. This would definitely be good information to know. Any takers?

Seems like a perfect project for the NSS Safety and Techniques Committee. It would be really worthwhile to the caving community and the NSS would be providing us a great service. Aaron, you out there in CaveChatLand? What say ye?

Cheryl