Cavechat.org

A wise old caver once told me that if you want to change something .....you must do it from within.

BrianC wrote:

NZcaver wrote:. But cavers washing their gear thoroughly in hot water is a no-brainer, especially given the previous chemical alternatives most of us have reluctantly participated in.

Hey, I could not agree more! I have always washed my caving gear including my vertical gear because I like to not smell the last trip plus I have never thought bringing one cave into the next was a good idea and I am a believer in clean gear will last longer. Except for my helmet and light, which only got wiped (will do better in the future though). You stated why I felt cavers are getting stupid, my thought is that we have been getting more gullible believing that decon will get us into caves. It won't make any difference, and it is easy to see that every time we are asked to help by this and that, we do and then get more of this and that we are asked to do all in the hopes that working with them will help get our caves back. We have been dumbed down just the way that they like us, little puppies following their leader. When are we going to just simply ask for what is right? Just a simple, when will caves be open? When? Peter, will you ask this question for us? Please! Please! I am being very nice, don't you think?

I'm tired of people insulting the intelligence of puppies. You are correct though that they are extremely good at following orders.

Despite your argument though, I still maintain that the puppy to bat vector is just theory. I have always argued it, and will continue to bring it up in every conversation with government officials. I asked for caves to be reopened when I was at the DMV today, but just like usual they ignored my demands.

Extremeophile wrote:I asked for caves to be reopened when I was at the DMV today, but just like usual they ignored my demands.

Attaboy, Derek!

Extremeophile wrote:I'm tired of people insulting the intelligence of puppies. You are correct though that they are extremely good at following orders.

Despite your argument though, I still maintain that the puppy to bat vector is just theory. I have always argued it, and will continue to bring it up in every conversation with government officials. I asked for caves to be reopened when I was at the DMV today, but just like usual they ignored my demands.

Obviously you need to clean your undergarments again! When wadded up, thoughtful conversation begins to stray on topic. You must start your next plea more near the top of the the command chain, say McDonalds at the midnight drive through, where their total commitment to your needs will be fruitful. Understandably though, needless leashes only make puppies piss on other peoples feet, and again, worthwhile meaningful questions about this only begins to get back on topic. Give it a try as early as possible while the smell is still freshly implanted in your photographic memory, then gravity will increase the movement up your leg. So glad that you have a good understanding! For any other advise just shoot a comment!


One more important bit of info, Any twenty four hour local Walmart has a customer service desk where anything that you don't like can be returned for a full refund, so if you really don't want your cave closings, you now know what to do! They really don't care where you got it!

Several months ago when there were proposed guidelines for soaking in ~140F water, I decided to test this in my basement washtub. I have my hot water heater set to med-high, and had no trouble keeping the water that hot for 15 minutes. Because most household thermometers don't reach that temperature, I bought a ten dollar high school chem lab thermometer (from amazon.com I think). If the water starts to cool down and you don't want to drain the tank any more, you can probably just boil a kettle of water on the side.

And you can always insulate the container to maintian temps. How about using an old cooler?

hewhocaves wrote:And you can always insulate the container to maintian temps. How about using an old cooler?

With a lid. Brilliant.
Except if you crammed a lot of stuff in there I really do think the dirty stuff:hot water ratio may result in rapid cooling anyway.

Now we're talking! Dishwasher, washing machine, bathtub, cooler... whatever. The idea is to figure out what works, but more importantly, which is easy. Make it easy and people will be more likely to do it.

Evan G wrote:It would be interesting to see the original study/paper on the 50C/122F Hot Water Decon Tests.

Evan, the research was conducted by Kevin Keel's lab at the Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study (SCWDS) at the College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Georgia. To my knowledge, it has not yet been published. SCWDS publishes a quarterly newsletter summarizing their work, SCWDS Briefs http://www.scwds.org/, and many issues have WNS-related stories. However, this particular project hasn't made it into print yet.

Dear U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, U.S. Forest Service, BLM, DOD, State Wildlife Agencies, County and City Parks, The Nature Conservancy, Cave Conservancies, the NSS, and Anyone Else Who Has Closed Caves,

When will caves be open?

Love,

Peter

PYoungbaer wrote:

Evan G wrote:It would be interesting to see the original study/paper on the 50C/122F Hot Water Decon Tests.

Evan, the research was conducted by Kevin Keel's lab at the Southeastern Cooperative Wildlife Disease Study (SCWDS) at the College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Georgia. To my knowledge, it has not yet been published. SCWDS publishes a quarterly newsletter summarizing their work, SCWDS Briefs http://www.scwds.org/, and many issues have WNS-related stories. However, this particular project hasn't made it into print yet.

Thank you Peter, I'll email them and see if I can get the study.

PYoungbaer wrote:Dear U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, U.S. Forest Service, BLM, DOD, State Wildlife Agencies, County and City Parks, The Nature Conservancy, Cave Conservancies, the NSS, and Anyone Else Who Has Closed Caves,

When will caves be open?

Love,

Peter

Gosh Peter, Thank You so very much, I know that you quoted me, but it really should read, Will you open the caves now? You have made the effort though! Thank You again Peter!

I guess this decon thing isn't so bad after all. It sure does provide some clean entertainment!

GroundquestMSA wrote:

hewhocaves wrote:And you can always insulate the container to maintian temps. How about using an old cooler?

With a lid. Brilliant.
Except if you crammed a lot of stuff in there I really do think the dirty stuff:hot water ratio may result in rapid cooling anyway.

No. you clean your gear PRIOR to deconning it. This is an additional step after your gear is completely clean.

Understood. I guess it doesn't really matter if it's clean or not, though. A ton of gear in a small space leaves little room for much hot water.

Despite directing him to this thread, I am unable to convince my agency (and NSS fellow) husband that prolonged 122 degree water is possible with most hot conventional water heaters. He (unfortunately) sent out a memo to a bunch of people in his agency alerting them to this thread and insisting that medical grade sanitizing (installed heating unit) washing machines must be employed.

While it is the truth that our personal water heater isn't set to 140 deg. (no reason to, up to now) I know from personal experience (my grandma's house which was on untreated well water) that 140 deg. water (or probably more!) is entirely within the realm of possibility, because I scalded my hands too many times after running hot tap water to do dishes. I eventually learned, put the dishes in, and the soap, and came back in 7-8 minutes to perform the chore. Or used rubber gloves.

How do you find out what temperature a heater is set to or capable of? We've got a 20 year plus old unit; a Net search of both the brand name and the model number was fruitless. Presumably you have to removed one of the little panels, and look at a thermostat somewhere. TNX