50C/122F Hot Water Decon Tests

[Pippin]

Sorry Peter, we need to just stick to Scientific Wild-Ass Guesses like government agencies. That's soooo much easier!

[wyandottecaver]

As a current Federal and Former State Government employee I resent that.

Science has nothing to do with our guesses, and they certainly aren't wild. That is because they AREN'T guesses. They are POLICY DECISIONS. A policy decision, as anyone knows requires neither science, guessing, or data to be valid...It just requires signatures so we can blame someone later. The bigger the decision, the more signatures are required to prrovide the requisite pool of scapegoats.

[NZcaver]

Do you people realize how much effort it took me to split this topic from the webinar/question agency methodology topic - and then fix topic titles, add links etc?

Post over there! Stay on topic! Chaos! Arrgh!!

[Dwight Livingston]

Most hot water heaters are set in the range of 120-140 f. Say yours is on 140, which is scalding hot. Most washing machines don't heat the water, they just use what come from the water heater. Stay with me here... Best case scenario, 140 deg water fills the washer tub. Dan's test shows that it will probably maintain a temp high enough to decon. But, what happens when you put heat sinks (clothes, coveralls, knee pads, harnesses, etc) in the water. It will cool down and most likely come close to the temp where decon is not reached. Washing machines are also hard on gear. Especially top loaders. And, you can't, or shouldn't, wash your hardware in them. Wanna put your helmet in the washing machine?

Dishwashers are a better option. They usually heat the water. If not in the wash cycle, then in the dry cycle. Mine gets hot enough to make a ton of steam. I assume that is pretty hot. You can put hard and soft ware in a dishwasher. It's very gentle since nothing is moving around.

Scott

I like your thinking and appreciate your concern for damage caused by washing machine agitation. I don't, however, think it is safe to assume that conditions in a dish washer will replicate the effect of immersion in 50C+ water. I have no reason to say it won't work, just a wish to dispel the assumption it will work. One thing I see in the history of science is a long line of assumptions proved wrong. I would stick to the conditions tested.

Dwight

[caverdan]

I agree NZ.....lets get this puppy back on track!!!

How about it Peter, Todd, Brian C....booger, TN. I double dog dare ya'll to do some testing with your washing machine and see what you get. Post it up here for comparison. Anyone else in the peanut gallery willing to take a dare!!! Maybe I'm making this stuff up.

I'll throw out a little more info. My hot water tank is within a 10' run of my washer and in 10 feet I'm not loosing even a tenth of a degree of temp between tank and washing machine. I've tested them to both to be the same. I bought my water heater about 4 years ago from homecheapo. It's a middle of the road model. 50 gallons. natural gas. It probably would go to 140 F but I have it on 8 instead of 10 and it was reading 135 F when I initially started the test. I dropped it to 7 on the dial and now it's reading 132.6 F. My first test convinced me I should turn it down a notch and see what I got. At 15 minutes I recorded 124.5 F and at 20 minutes it measured 122.9 F. I think it's good to hold the tempature over 122 F for the extra 5 minutes. Heck....you could forget it for an hour and you would be good to go and the water would still be luke warm.

Here is the tempature sensor I'm using http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-1522-Indoo ... B001H1LTME
I bought it at Ace Hardware. I initially checked it against the same meter I borrowed again today to recheck my unit. The unit I borrowed is a Fluke 50 series II http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/Electri ... ?PID=56085 The cheapo Taylor is still reading right on with the fluke within the .1 degree that the taylor reads. I put the outside probe in the water since it's suppose to be waterproof. Now I'm sure some of you at least have a meat thermometer or something along those lines you could use.

John.....thanks for all the added facts about dish washers. (I bought mine a green dress to match the toaster ).

Seriously though folks......160 F and 180 F sounds way too hot for things like coated nylon or helmet stickers and such. I use to put my hats in the dishwasher many moons ago until I noticed it loosened some of the silkscreen letters and made them fall off. I think staying closer to 122 F with a machine that submerses is the way to go. Starting around 135 F and you will be safe. Even if your thermometer is off by a few degrees you will still be within limits, so don't go out and buy anything expensive. But I suggest keeping it handy and check your beginning and end tempature each time. A simple egg timer is all you need if you want to be sure. Otherwise check it at the start and rest assured your doing your part.

[Pippin]

Wyandotte, I hope that my reference to SWAG didn't offend you too much. Maybe we need to come up with another acronym to cover policy guesses. Er, I mean policy *decisions*. NZ, I'm sure we'll all try to minimize the chaos and extreme stress you have to deal with herding us all around here!

FYI, I talked with someone involved in the submersion research and was told that dishwashers weren't tested and we can't be sure they'll actually kill WNS fungus/spores since they don't submerge anything. Until we know for sure, I would stick to the washing machine or some other method that actually keeps gear in the water. I'm thinking about trying a huge witch's cauldron in the backyard. That would really freak out the neighbors. John's idea of getting a grad student to test dishwashers sounds good to me. Maybe the NSS WNS fund can fund it! I'm serious. I bet dishwashers will work, but we don't actually know.

[PYoungbaer]

Re: caverdan's challenge - alas, I have a front-loading washer

But, I could probably do a similar experiment in the bathtub

For now, I agree with Dwight, and would stick with immersion, as stated in the protocol. I will ask about dishwasher testing - I know that many methods and chemicals have been tried.

[BrianC]

Caverdan, Thanks for the offer, but really to me I only see that if the temp required to kill Gd is what it is, I will be easily able to accommodate that temp. and time required. I don't care about stickers and what nots falling off from to high of temp either. The issue is, What does this information offer to cavers? Will it get caves open? The answer is, cavers do not spread WNS anyway, and No, caves will not be reopened. I do like to know the answer to questions before asked. Some kind of control issue obviously. So I kind of understand where the USFWS is coming from, and know how to irritate them. Their buttons are also very push able.

Ever see their faces when asked of questions that they CAN"T honestly answer? Meaning that they know what the right thing to do is, but they also know what they must say! Funny bunch, very glad I'm not one of them!

[Extremeophile]

I also have a front-loader, but I can't say for sure that it doesn't have some sort of soak cycle. I'd have to load everything in first before starting the cycle though, and I'd have to snake a thermocouple through the gasket in the door. I also have a tankless water heater that is set to 45C (113F), but it has a temperature dial right on the front so it's easy to turn up and down to whatever I want. No worries about growing bugs at a lower temperature when there's no tank.

Nice work Dan.

Whether or not you think cavers can spread Gd, or decon is doing any good, or whether deconning will change public land policies, it is still a requirement at most of the caves I frequent. Finding an easier to follow and chemical-free procedure is definitely worth the time and effort to develop.

[BrianC]

Whether or not you think cavers can spread Gd, or decon is doing any good, or whether deconning will change public land policies, it is still a requirement at most of the caves I frequent. Finding an easier to follow and chemical-free procedure is definitely worth the time and effort to develop.

So, how to show that you did the decon. You could smell the Lysol, now what? video the 20 minute wash cycle showing that the temp was correct? Write that you promise that you did the decon? We have seen all the incorrect information already given by the USFWS as truth, so where and how does integrity fit into this equation? I'm just still amazed at how stupid we have become.

[MUD]

Whether or not you think cavers can spread Gd, or decon is doing any good, or whether deconning will change public land policies, it is still a requirement at most of the caves I frequent. Finding an easier to follow and chemical-free procedure is definitely worth the time and effort to develop.

So, how to show that you did the decon. You could smell the Lysol, now what? video the 20 minute wash cycle showing that the temp was correct? Write that you promise that you did the decon? We have seen all the incorrect information already given by the USFWS as truth, so where and how does integrity fit into this equation? I'm just still amazed at how stupid we have become.

Very Good Brian!

DECON IS FOR DUMMIES!

[NZcaver]

So, how to show that you did the decon. You could smell the Lysol, now what? video the 20 minute wash cycle showing that the temp was correct? Write that you promise that you did the decon? We have seen all the incorrect information already given by the USFWS as truth, so where and how does integrity fit into this equation? I'm just still amazed at how stupid we have become.

Why are we (cavers) stupid? That makes little sense. After chemical decon, you can't always smell the chemical - especially if you rinse repeatedly. It's mostly been just an honesty and common sense system. By common sense I mean don't show up at a cave and pull out dirty caving gear!

We all know the agency etc info and management decisions have been "changeable" at best, and frankly knee-jerk and downright incompetent all over the place. But cavers washing their gear thoroughly in hot water is a no-brainer, especially given the previous chemical alternatives most of us have reluctantly participated in.

[PYoungbaer]

Agreed, NZ. By the way, thanks for breaking this thread off separately. Unfortunately, the original reference link to the full USFWS decon webinar was not carried over, so I repeat it here for the source and impetus for this thread's discussion:

http://nctc.fws.gov/CSP/Resources/white%20...%20/home.html

Click on the link and follow the link to the Archive of past White-Nose Syndrome webinars. USFWS says that "all of the content on the Archive can be shared with the public, so please feel free to forward this link to anyone that is interested."

There are six webinars, and the sixth one deals with decon protocols and includes the new "hot water" standard, replacing the former "boiling water" standard. Specifically, immersing gear in water >50 degrees Celsius (122F) for at least 15 minutes will kill the fungus.

[Evan G]

It would be interesting to see the original study/paper on the 50C/122F Hot Water Decon Tests.

[BrianC]

. But cavers washing their gear thoroughly in hot water is a no-brainer, especially given the previous chemical alternatives most of us have reluctantly participated in.

Hey, I could not agree more! I have always washed my caving gear including my vertical gear because I like to not smell the last trip plus I have never thought bringing one cave into the next was a good idea and I am a believer in clean gear will last longer. Except for my helmet and light, which only got wiped (will do better in the future though). You stated why I felt cavers are getting stupid, my thought is that we have been getting more gullible believing that decon will get us into caves. It won't make any difference, and it is easy to see that every time we are asked to help by this and that, we do and then get more of this and that we are asked to do all in the hopes that working with them will help get our caves back. We have been dumbed down just the way that they like us, little puppies following their leader. When are we going to just simply ask for what is right? Just a simple, when will caves be open? When? Peter, will you ask this question for us? Please! Please! I am being very nice, don't you think?