Action Alert request for WNS funding

[wyandottecaver]

In no way disputing your comment about Brian I do have to jump in on the "economic myth".

Justin Boyles also thinks heated bat houses in caves are worth piss...err spending tax dollars on. No other nightime predators of *flying* insects...(I would actually argue that frogs do a pretty good job)... Thats like saying if you spend $100/week on cigaretts and we outlaw cigaretts then you'll have $100 you cant spend...trust me, you'll spend it somewhere.

Nonetheless, there are plenty of nightime (and otherwise) predators of those insects throughout their lifecycles. Something *will* eat them. Shrikes, shrews (also nightime predators), dragonflies, any number of birds, heck even bobcats..you get the idea. Britian has very few bats...where is the economic devastation? Also, most modern agriculture uses pesticides. Poison kills whether there are 1 or 1000. Yes, you have some extra damage...but billions?

yes, there will be some huge impacts...mostly in cave biology...but this agricultural doomsday is just shameful posturing for cash...not science and certainly not biology.

[DeanWiseman]

I am a bit surprised at your take on this, Dean. ONLY 20 MILLION!!!??? Yes, compared to the total budget deficit, it is but a drop in the bucket. But there are countless other organizations and special-interest groups out there, all pleading for their "drop in the bucket." All of those drops add up to a lot of water, or in this case, money. And many of those other groups will tell you that their cause is so very important and urgent that it must be funded- after all, "its only a tiny amount compared to the total." This is the kind of attitude that got us here, because every Tom, Dick, and Harry special interest group has to get their portion of the federal budget pie. It all adds up!

I'm not here to argue fiscal stoichiometry. Yes it adds up. But the difference lies in the potential impact (economic, well-being, and other factors) for the spending. I'm not saying spend MORE money, I'm saying spend what we will have to spend (whatever the final budget may be). I'm saying the threat of WNS transcends other so-called budgetary priorities.

Let's put this in perspective: In the Fiscal Year 2011The U.S. Dept of Agriculture spent $20 Billion (that's 20,000 x $1,000,000 dollars... if you stacked $100 bills it would be 13 1/2 miles tall) on farm subsidies. You really think they're going to miss $20 Million... the equivalent of 1/1000th of the subsidy budget, especially on what could represent a significant threat to food supply security, and on crops--notably corn--which have increasing evidence linking the dietary over-consumption of to the epidemic of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease? They could trim 10% off the Subsidy (making it $18 Billion, and $20 Million would still be 1/900th of that pot of money), they could trim 25% off the Agricultural subsidy (and have about 1/3 of the States threaten to secede from the Union) and that would only amount to $5 Billion in savings, which means $20 Million would represent a whopping 1/750th of the Subsidy Budget.

Priorities, Trog. Priorities:

WNS vs. 20 miles of road. The U.S. has over 47,000 miles of Interstate (costing an average of ~$9 Million/mile). Do we really need to re-pave and/or build another 20 this year?


Again, we're not talking profligacy here... (i.e. "if we just spent a little more"...) we're talking where the priorities of what remains should be.

-Dean

[Phil Winkler]

Tried several times to do this, but that is one of the most annoying web sites I've ever seen. After finally creating an account (their email went into my Junk folder) and being forced to make a high security password, the Sign the Petition button is grayed out. When it finally was clickable I got a 404 error. No wonder they can't get enough signatures. Sheesh....

Our government at work.

[BrianC]

First of all, the one paper that was issued by Boyles, et al, was not a study, but an opinion piece by some of the best bat researchers in the country on the potential economic effects on agriculture. They readily admit in their paper the limitations of their data, which is why the range of potential impacts was so wide ($3 billion to more than $50 billion). They actually do say in their paper that the effects in the Northeast are likely far less than in the Midwest,

You do see that this is NOT what the social media sees and hears don't you? I do know that this very misleading story is threatening to the farmers and outdoor enthusiasts, bringing them closer to the issue. Very very wrong for them to get this story. In the meantime, the story continues to fake reality, asking to get financial support for their benefit. Very, very wrong in anyone's book.

[BrianC]

I can continue with other inconsistencies if needed

That's OK, Brian, I think you've given us enough inconsistencies to last a life time.

Serious question Peter, How much WNS funding from any source has been slated your way?

[tncaver]

Tried several times to do this, but that is one of the most annoying web sites I've ever seen. After finally creating an account (their email went into my Junk folder) and being forced to make a high security password, the Sign the Petition button is grayed out. When it finally was clickable I got a 404 error. No wonder they can't get enough signatures. Sheesh....

Our government at work.

Our Government at Work....sounds like the name of another thread on Cave Chat.

[PYoungbaer]

Tried several times to do this, but that is one of the most annoying web sites I've ever seen. After finally creating an account (their email went into my Junk folder) and being forced to make a high security password, the Sign the Petition button is grayed out. When it finally was clickable I got a 404 error. No wonder they can't get enough signatures. Sheesh....

Our government at work.

Yes, it's been an issue. BCI's IT person experimented with the sign in process and determined that it was an issue with people using Microsoft Internet Explorer as their browser. Folks using Mozilla Firefox or Google Chrome don't seem to have a problem. It's a tedious process anyway, but that just makes it worse. If you're willing to try once more, try downloading Google Chrome - it's free and quick.

We have sent a message to the White House about the site, for whatever it's worth.

[Phil Winkler]

I'm using Firefox and have for years. Dysfunctional websites requiring certain browsers are just stupid in this day and age. It is also incredibly slow to do anything.

[tncaver]

I'm using Firefox and have for years. Dysfunctional websites requiring certain browsers are just stupid in this day and age. It is also incredibly slow to do anything.

An out of date browser may have trouble working on newer pages. Phil, if you don't have the latest Firefox, then maybe you need to download
the latest version. I'm using Firefox 8 right now. I was having problems with my old Firefox 6 so I downloaded the newer version and it fixed the
problems I was having on other websites.

[Phil Winkler]

I stay up to date as often as I can and am using 8.0 also. Even so, that wouldn't fully explain the very slow loading of those pages there. Such a shame because I suspect people might just give up rather then sign the petition because of it.

[MUD]

We have sent a message to the White House about the site, for whatever it's worth.

Now that's a good laugh!

[tncaver]

Even so, that wouldn't fully explain the very slow loading of those pages there. Such a shame because I suspect people might just give up rather then sign the petition because of it.

Maybe that's the idea. Frustrate the petitioners into giving up.

[BrianC]

5126 now, its not going to happen in two more days! goes to show that many people feel that the bats, that so many of us revere as awesome little creatures, will make it on their own as they have from the beginning. Humans didn't create their dilemma, and humans will never have the power to fix their dilemma.

[wyandottecaver]

then again, they may grant an extension based on access issues. I dont support the effort, but they should at least make the process straightforward.

As Peter and others haave said the NSS WNS fund is "cleaner" .

Brian....We all know how you are, but SURELY not even you can have missed the fact repeated over and over that Peter is a VOLUNTEER. Oh, wait...I said "fact"...that's why you didn't know.

[BrianC]

then again, they may grant an extension based on access issues. I dont support the effort, but they should at least make the process straightforward.

As Peter and others haave said the NSS WNS fund is "cleaner" .

Brian....We all know how you are, but SURELY not even you can have missed the fact repeated over and over that Peter is a VOLUNTEER. Oh, wait...I said "fact"...that's why you didn't know.

You certainly were not the subject of the question, But I have to say that you seem to answer for many people. I need to commend you on behalf of the USFWS cave closure orders support, without some of your past comments, who knows, we might just be caving.