WNS and Hydrofracking.

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WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby jbirdweb » Oct 11, 2011 5:39 pm

I'm sure with as many members as the NSS has who have geology backgrounds someone has wondered if the process of hydrofracking, used to obtain natural gas from shale beds, and WNS are linked. is there any research that might suggest such a link? Since WNS first appeared in the NE, and the NE is where most of the hydrofracking is taking place it would seem a logical question to ask, especially when one considers just how dangerous and irresponsible the whole process of hydrofracking is. if anyone knows I would love to find out.
Thanks

I am resubmitting this post here under the WNS subforum.
Since I first posted this topic I have since found that France has outlawed fracking and that one of the major negatives with hydrofracking is that it emits huge amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere and releases gasses such as Radon and Boron from the Earth at a much accelerated rate.

I hope someone has dome some research into this issue. :bananabat: :bat sticker:
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby Tlaloc » Oct 11, 2011 8:28 pm

So, uh, boron is a gas?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron

Hydrofracking causes WNS?
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby jbirdweb » Oct 12, 2011 8:23 am

OK I stand corrected it was not Born it was Argon not Boron.

I am not saying hydrofracking causes WNS. I am saying it may be worth investigating.
If you look at maps where WNS has occurred in the US and where fracking is going on they pretty much coincide as of last year.
Since it is now believed that WNS can be transmitted whether by humans, bats or the cave gods the WNS map has grown.
I just think it interesting that fracking deep shale beds for natural gas has been taking place in and around the areas that have WNS.
Maybe just coincidental as the deposits may just happen to be near the karst areas affected.

I love message boards, Think I'll lay in wait to belittle the next poster also.

Indy
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby Tlaloc » Oct 12, 2011 9:12 am

jbirdweb wrote:If you look at maps where WNS has occurred in the US and where fracking is going on they pretty much coincide as of last year...


I'd like to see these maps. Fracking has been done all over the west for years and there's no WNS in the west.

Argon is an inert gas. I don't see how it could cause WNS.

Disagreeing is nor belittling.
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby Phil Winkler » Oct 12, 2011 9:45 am

Fracking also takes place very deep underground. Much deeper then any cave could be. I simply don't see any possible connection between fracking and WNS.
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby batrotter » Oct 12, 2011 10:24 am

Shouldn't you have posted this on the global warming thread? There are plenty of believers on it.
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby jbirdweb » Oct 12, 2011 12:06 pm

Wow,
Make a simple observation! :roll:
I am by no means a geologist, pathologist, chemist or any other type of scientist.
I was simply stating that there MAY be a reason to investigate, but as is typical with anything cave related opinions abound, and condescension seems to be the order of the day.
Perhaps there is no connection and I may be pissing in the wind, but I am sick of hearing people say that fracking is safe when there is certain evidence that suggests otherwise (geologists are always the first to jump down your throat if you even raise the idea that fracking is dangerous, and considering that many geologists work for the fossil fuel and natural gas industries that is not at all surprising).
Perhaps the most plausible answer is that WNS entered the US in containers from other countries where bats may have been trapped and shipped with goods from other areas of the world as was stated elsewhere in this forum.
The bottom line is this, we know very little at this stage of the origins of the disease, how to combat it effectively, or control it's spread, but as cavers we have a unique opportunity to help answer these questions and I suggest that we should investigate any possibility no matter how obscure or unlikely.

:shrug:
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby hewhocaves » Oct 12, 2011 12:09 pm

Very very very very very very very unlikely. Effectively, no. Just having two areas overlap does not imply a causal relationship. you would have to come up with some mechanism through which the act of fracking could create or spread WNS. That mechanism would have to undegro rigorous scrutiny to be conclusively proven to be a contributing factor.

Furthermore, I believe (but am not certain) that fracking in new york state followed the onset of WNS. if anything, bats caused fracking! lol

note - i am also a geologist. a karst geologist. make what you want of that.
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby jbirdweb » Oct 12, 2011 12:33 pm

John,
Thanks, that helps.
Honest discourse is all I seek, we can't know everything and the only way to learn new things and ferret out the truth is to ask questions.
Being able to ask questions and get positive feedback is what this forum is all about.
Asking a simple question was all I was doing, you gave a good useful answer and I appreciate it.
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby hewhocaves » Oct 12, 2011 1:05 pm

my pleasure.

We're pattern-seeking creatures. it's perfectly natural to see bad things A and B and wonder if they can't be related. Sometimes it works (rats and plague) other times... well, not so much (negative horoscopes and a bad day).

Which is where science comes in. yaay science. cause we can put up an idea and immediately start shooting holes in that idea in a way that would make any 8 year old playing Halo on a X-box proud. If the idea lasts that first round of Halo-like scrutiny, then it might be worth persuing. at least long enough to reload the gun.

Not surprisingly, most things don't last the first round. But that's ok - its still progress... you've eliminated a possibility and only have a bazillion more to try ;) As they say: rinse, repeat.

John
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby jbirdweb » Oct 12, 2011 1:10 pm

John,
You bring up on of my favorite quotes:

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
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Re: WNS and Hydrofracking.

Postby Tlaloc » Oct 12, 2011 1:59 pm

jbirdweb wrote:...I am sick of hearing people say that fracking is safe when there is certain evidence that suggests otherwise (geologists are always the first to jump down your throat if you even raise the idea that fracking is dangerous, and considering that many geologists work for the fossil fuel and natural gas industries that is not at all surprising)....


Nobody on this forum said that.
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