Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

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Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby peter febb » Jun 29, 2011 10:15 am

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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby boogercaver71 » Jun 29, 2011 10:33 am

Just a rehash of same old stuff, 1 million bats dead, cavers to blame.
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby David Grimes » Jun 29, 2011 12:20 pm

Definitely not a very good video for educating the public. That video puts all the blame on cavers and does not even mention bat to bat transmission.
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby peter febb » Jun 29, 2011 12:38 pm

It's a PR problem. The public needs to be educated as to the major differences between cavers and spelunkers.
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby BrianC » Jun 29, 2011 1:21 pm

:shrug:
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Steve Pitts » Jun 29, 2011 1:39 pm

Its more simple than that. There is no evidence of a human link AT ALL.
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby boogercaver71 » Jun 29, 2011 2:39 pm

peter febb wrote:It's a PR problem. The public needs to be educated as to the major differences between cavers and spelunkers.


I disagree, Joe Public does not really care, it is the government bureaucrats who obviously need the education.
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Claude Koch » Jun 29, 2011 5:16 pm

Here is the rest of the link to the Smithsonian Magazine August 2011 issue article.
Here you will find the photos link, the video link, and the article at:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-n ... Bats.html#


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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Teresa » Jun 29, 2011 10:25 pm

The only way to get the government bureaucrats to care is to make the public care and demand action from their elected officials who then lean on the bureaucrats. Also, if there are gov't bureaucrats who are sympathetic to the NSS stance, cavers need to let them know they are on their side, because then the bureaucrats can go to elected officials who can do something.
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Bob Thrun » Jun 30, 2011 12:33 am

The article opens in Mammoth Cave. It says
On summer days, this natural underground chamber is packed with tourists, but today the scientists have the place to themselves. Clad in disposable white Tyvek suits to avoid tracking microbes into or out of the cave,...

This has to be for show, like the NASA technicians sterilizing a moon probe with ultraviolet light.

Later, the article says
Researchers don’t know when and how the fungus made its way to North America, but they speculate that it may be so-called “pathogen pollution,” the inadvertent human transport of diseases—in this case possibly by a cave-visiting tourist—into new and hospitable habitats.

What about all the tourists that are packed into Mammoth Cave?
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Steve Pitts » Jun 30, 2011 9:23 am

The hypocrisy/stupidity of the "scientific" community involved with this sort of nonsense at Mammoth Cave is appalling beyond belief.

I guess one could say " there is no know evidence that tourists can transport the pathogen"
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby John Lovaas » Jun 30, 2011 10:28 am

I should point out that the only likely way that commercial cave tourists could effectively (and, I should clarify, hypothetically) transport spores or microbes from a cave is via the soles of their shoes. And, of all the hypothetical human transport models, it is, clearly the least effective way of doing so. If you were going to collect sediments from a cave, and you wanted to maximize the amount of sediment, would you be better off walking on a trail, or crawling on your belly for several hours?

For some time, tourists at Mammoth Cave have been walking across 'bio-mats'- mats effectively used in veterinary and agricultural applications around the world, before and after entering the cave.

Bob- I was under the impression that you are still one of the CRF cartographers for Mammoth Cave; would have thought you knew about the bio mats.

I'm sure that you know that CRF is still caving at Mammoth; ensuring that our caving gear is decon'ed per USFWS protocols before we start an expedition, and ensuring that we decon our gear after the expedition, and before we enter another cave. Quite reasonable! There's a short list of 'small' caves that are closed at the moment, and gear use between ridges is prohibited, unless the geared in decon'ed before entry. Not a problem for most expeditions- we simply focus our efforts on one ridge.
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby John Lovaas » Jun 30, 2011 10:36 am

Bob Thrun wrote:This has to be for show, like the NASA technicians sterilizing a moon probe with ultraviolet light.


Actually- it is to remove a variable from a scientific experiment. Both Brooke and Hazel have been to boatloads of caves with boatloads of microbial life- and a number of those caves have lot of Geomyces destructans.

Microbiologists often suit up- even in 'dirty' places, like a cave, to ensure that any microbial life hanging out on their person or gear doesn't end up in their collecting apparatus.

Hydrogeologists doing dye tracing often suit up when sampling, as they may have minute quantities of dye still on their person- after all, the person who dumped the dye is often the person who collects the dye receptors. I'm waving my hand in the air, and going ME ME ME... but you can't see that ;-)

And when you can detect tracing dyes at the levels of a few parts per BILLION, scrupulous cleanliness counts.

So- not really for show, but for scientific precision and accuracy.
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Steve Pitts » Jun 30, 2011 1:14 pm

If you were going to collect sediments from a cave, and you wanted to maximize the amount of sediment, would you be better off walking on a trail, or crawling on your belly for several hours?


I understand your point. As far as that goes, I also have no problem doing decon. I do have a problem with those in the USFWS and others that say it is OK to decon and do their science, but we cant decon and do our cave survey. I have been OK all along with the practice of caving within one region only to minimize the possibility even further.
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Re: Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

Postby Bob Thrun » Jun 30, 2011 1:21 pm

John Lovaas wrote:I should point out that the only likely way that commercial cave tourists could effectively (and, I should clarify, hypothetically) transport spores or microbes from a cave is via the soles of their shoes. And, of all the hypothetical human transport models, it is, clearly the least effective way of doing so.

It was a frequently repeated conjecture that a European tourist carried the fungus to Howe Caverns on his shoes, thus introducing the fungus to America. I didn't buy it, but it was often repeated. I remember stopping at every commercial cave I passed on a cross-country trip.

Bob- I was under the impression that you are still one of the CRF cartographers for Mammoth Cave; would have thought you knew about the bio mats.

No, you must have me confused with someone else. I have not caved with CRF at Mammoth Cave or elsewhere.
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