Are Spelunkers Carrying the White Nose Syndrome?

[John Lovaas]

It was a frequently repeated conjecture that a European tourist carried the fungus to Howe Caverns on his shoes, thus introducing the fungus to America. I didn't buy it, but it was often repeated. I remember stopping at every commercial cave I passed on a cross-country trip.

And not even accurate conjecture- as it wasn't Howe Caverns- but Howe Cave(one of a cluster of caves where it first appeared), and I am unaware of any evidence that shows that the syndrome- or spores or hyphae of the fungus- have been detected in Howe Caverns.

No, you must have me confused with someone else. I have not caved with CRF at Mammoth Cave or elsewhere.

I am very much confused! Sorry, Bob- and my apologies to CRF cartographer Bob Thren. Not Thrun. Doh.

[John Lovaas]

I do have a problem with those in the USFWS and others that say it is OK to decon and do their science, but we cant decon and do our cave survey. I have been OK all along with the practice of caving within one region only to minimize the possibility even further.

Steve-

I support your view 100%. It's pretty simple- what is a primary management tool for a cave manager?

A map.

And why can't responsible cave surveyors abide by the same rules that bat biologists abide by?

Well- they can. And do so every weekend, on many public lands in the country. A fact, given the situation at Fern Cave, that some agency personnel are incapable of discerning.

[Steve Pitts]

Indeed John. This thought has flashed through my mind every day for the last two and a half years. We still are happy to do the bat checks and guano sampling projects for the USFWS. Seems like the official decon procedure and the logic for letting people into the cave to do USFWS science would apply to cave surveyors. Evidently, it does not. They are totally immune to the thinking processes of their primary knowledge base : us!

[TNCave]

I just wanted to throw out that as I understand the closures, each agency policy varies somewhat, although that's not necessarily reflected in press releases, etc.
Many agencies will consider/give permits for research and cave surveys are considered research.

Cory

[Pippin]

I just wanted to throw out that as I understand the closures, each agency policy varies somewhat, although that's not necessarily reflected in press releases, etc.
Many agencies will consider/give permits for research and cave surveys are considered research.

Cory

Not in my experience. And I've tried.

[PYoungbaer]

There are plenty of examples across the country where grottos, regions, conservancies, CRF, and others, including individuals have projects, MOU's, experiments, and simply survey, mapping, photo documentation, etc. permits and/or arrangements, even in WNS-affected regions and on federally-managed lands. Lots depends on building personal or institutional relationships. What doesn't appear to be occurring with the agencies is simply recreational caving. However, many I talk to are more than willing to entertain requests for projects that include inventorying their caves, inventorying for significant resources, including bats, archaeology, WNS monitoring, and more. They simply don't have the resources, as we know. I posted comments on another WNS thread from a USFS Southern Region administrator who basically states what I did above.

[BrianC]

There are plenty of examples across the country where grottos, regions, conservancies, CRF, and others, including individuals have projects, MOU's, experiments, and simply survey, mapping, photo documentation, etc. permits and/or arrangements, even in WNS-affected regions and on federally-managed lands. Lots depends on building personal or institutional relationships. What doesn't appear to be occurring with the agencies is simply recreational caving. However, many I talk to are more than willing to entertain requests for projects that include inventorying their caves, inventorying for significant resources, including bats, archaeology, WNS monitoring, and more. They simply don't have the resources, as we know. I posted comments on another WNS thread from a USFS Southern Region administrator who basically states what I did above.

Peter, I appears that many agencies are just pacifying cavers until the critical habitat can be established in caves for the ESA! So none of this really matters!

[wyandottecaver]

Cory and Pippin,

There are indeed differences between Agencies and even regions of the same agency. In my experiance, USFWS & DNR = bad. USFS and TNC = good.

USFWS & DNR
The USFWS and some State DNR agencies who get funding from them, fairly uniformly seem to be singing the USFWS only cavers song. To the point they screwed...errr restructured their Indiana Bat Surveys for Indiana by replacing techniques and personnel with USFWS and DNR only crews....including removing well published PH.D experts and long time biologist cavers who had been involved for 20+ years with USFWS personel who had...well....put on tan shirts.

why? because cavers carry WNS of course

They then used a bunch of off the street temp help dumped into tan shirts to process the data.....(which due to the technique change will coincidently inflate the numbers relative to the 30 years of baseline data.....)for the first year of WNS in Indiana. So expecting competency let alone consistency is prolly a stretch. (for the record I haven't been directly involved in those surveys for several years myself, but know most of the people who were)

We couldn't even get an established PH.D Professor of cave science into minor DNR caves without bats to do a follow-up blindfish study. Cause of course only the USFWS can enter caves without spreading WNS.

USFS & TNC
I and others have gotten permits to do basic cave survey and ridgewalking from the USFS with relatively little hassle. The TNC has allowed our state conservancy to take over access of an entrance to a major project cave so that survey and exploration can continue despite WNS.

What's the difference? USFS and TNC didn't issue and thus don't have to try and defend a patently flawed cavers = WNS theory like the USFWS and unlike the DNR aren't dependent on USFWS wildlife funds. I also think they have a better "corporate culture" that is closer to the land as opposed to closer to policy manuals.

[wyandottecaver]

Brian,

Designating caves as Critical habitat is not even the worst part. There has been serious talk of designating entire areas, parks, and forests as critical habitat.....lots easier than listing a bunch of individual caves whose names and locations they don't even know anyway.

[BrianC]

Brian,

Designating caves as Critical habitat is not even the worst part. There has been serious talk of designating entire areas, parks, and forests as critical habitat.....lots easier than listing a bunch of individual caves whose names and locations they don't even know anyway.

Bingo! Now what? Caves will be completely censored and off limits for all including scientific study and cancer research.

[Teresa]

There are plenty of examples across the country where grottos, regions, conservancies, CRF, and others, including individuals have projects, MOU's, experiments, and simply survey, mapping, photo documentation, etc. permits and/or arrangements, even in WNS-affected regions and on federally-managed lands. Lots depends on building personal or institutional relationships. What doesn't appear to be occurring with the agencies is simply recreational caving. However, many I talk to are more than willing to entertain requests for projects that include inventorying their caves, inventorying for significant resources, including bats, archaeology, WNS monitoring, and more. They simply don't have the resources, as we know. I posted comments on another WNS thread from a USFS Southern Region administrator who basically states what I did above.

The trouble is: where people HAVE had long term personal and institutional relationships, sometimes as long as 50 years' standing, those relationships have been abrogated, and the cavers are being treated as part of the general public, even by people who know us. Projects, especially cave restoration and education projects, stand dead in the water. In short, instead of cooperative agreements as have stood for many years, the agencies are wanting work contracts with them calling the shots. Many cavers who are willing to help on an ad hoc basis, don't have the reliable leisure time for a second, unpaid job.

We're still angry and hurt, that even when we've reached out, we've been rebuffed. Until that anger and hurt is addressed no progress will be made.

[Teresa]

I just wanted to throw out that as I understand the closures, each agency policy varies somewhat, although that's not necessarily reflected in press releases, etc.

If it is not, they are lying to the public and should be called out on it.

Many agencies will consider/give permits for research and cave surveys are considered research.

This misses the point entirely. On of the points of any volunteer service to agencies is that volunteers are treated as unpaid employees. As unpaid employees, the volunteers are subject to the same behavior regulations as employees. Some are even reimbursed for expenses and transportation. So cavers can become volunteers? Nothing new about that.

Is this what we want caving to become? Just another way for citizens to become serfs in order to grovel for a little cave air?

I don't.

I'm with Peter on the "First they came for the other guy" scenario. Cavers should be concerned not that just Joan or Jim Caver has access, but that ALL cave users following the rules on government lands have responsible access. A permit system? Not ideal, but doable. I'm as concerned that the Mom or Dad wanting to gather up a bunch of flashlights to explore a safe walking wild cave on public lands retain legal access as that some grotto wanting to go caving.

Everyone here has defined the problem over and over. We can't go back to the past. What do you think are possible solutions for the cave access future?

[GroundquestMSA]

At a baseball game Friday night, I noticed several bats flapping about. Do you think Cleveland Indians fans are carrying WNS?

[BrianC]

At a baseball game Friday night, I noticed several bats flapping about. Do you think Cleveland Indians fans are carrying WNS?

That must be it! A stadium would be a great critical habitat for the endangered bats! What a great idea, we got to get busy spreading the news. It will be easy for our forestry service, they made everyone in the world that cavers spread a fungus to bats! Wow, let them know tomorrow. No wait, call them now, this can't wait!

[PYoungbaer]

At the ball park, those were fungo bats, not fungus bats.