Peter Youngbaer ROCKS!

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Re: Peter Youngbaer ROCKS!

Postby John Lovaas » Jun 28, 2011 1:02 pm

On the flip side of this, I couldn't authorize a grotto to just go on a caving trip. This would give the perception of exclusive use and there would be no benefit to the government or cave resource.


This is one land manager's opinion- and given the context, it may not even be their own personal opinion, but their view of what arguments would be laid at their feet when their superiors- and all the myriad "owners" of the cave resource- step on the land manager's nuts.

We ought to acknowledge another item in that email Peter shared-

Lets face it, the FS and probably most federal agencies know very little about their caves and we could keep NSS folks underground for years gathering data we need to properly manage the cave resources.


So- I think we can all agree that WNS is a wildlife emergency. We have unique skills that, as volunteers, are clearly recognized as beneficial by many agencies; in fact, the only agency in the nation that has specifically stated that it is NOT interested in working with volunteers on cave mapping/monitoring/inventory is the Wisconsin DNR. The USFWS folks associated with Fern Cave seem to be another group- but I cannot speak to that; it's just my perception.

Agencies need our help. We can help them. As I pointed out in my prior post, feel free to pursue MOUs. However- if an agency recognizes that cavers can provide immense amounts of "boots on the ground" mapping/monitoring/inventory support- but "don't feel like it" or would "rather do their own thing"- what message has been sent to those agency managers?

Here's my inexact theoretical analogy-

I'm up at my folk's place in Wisconsin during deer hunting season, and the house is on fire. The volunteer fire department is about 20 minutes away. I'm helping my mom and dad out of the house, trying to get the dogs out of the house, trying to get a hose unwound to keep the fire at bay, after I've emptied the fire extinguisher- and one of the guys who hunts our land(a volunteer firefighter in another county, lets say) pulls up, parks, gets his rifle out of the trunk, says hello- and heads into the woods.

"Where the f*** are you going?", I ask. "Going to my tree stand, as I always do!", he says. "Do ya think you could help out, maybe?", I ask.

"Aw, dude, I took vacation time from work to go hunting. Do you mind?"

I would. Very much.

We have an opportunity to build bridges with land managers who recognize our value, as well as a resposibility to shame those who dismiss our value. If there is a glimmer of hope to help a cave manager with survey/monitoring/inventory- do so, at your earliest opportunity.
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Re: Peter Youngbaer ROCKS!

Postby Teresa » Jun 28, 2011 1:41 pm

The point remains:

Deer are getting CWD. Hunting is still permitted on state and federal lands where it has been. Deer hunters are asked to report any sick deer they see, but they are not being asked to become cervid biologists.

Fish are getting any number of nasty things, from whirling disease, Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia, channel catfish virus, etc.. Fishing is still permitted on state and federal lands. Fishermen are asked to help with species surveys, but the state does this by attaching reward tags where the fishermen get between $10 and $100 depending on the survey for sending in the reward tag along with some catch data. They are not asked to become fisheries biologists. Anglers are told to eschew felt soled waders, to avoid spreading didymo.

Boaters are bombarded with public information on not spreading zebra mussels, and how to clean their boats. Campers are being assaulted with ads and even billboard telling them not to move any firewood to prevent emerald ashborer transfer. Boating and camping are still big bucks industries being encouraged as outdoor recreation. Neither boaters nor campers are expected to have any special expertise.

Cleanup and restoration have been activities I've been involved in for over 15 years. Anyone can help clean up a cave. This would seem to be a prime time to do so. But if caving has to be "work" to be justified, why not hunting, fishing, camping or boating? Cleanup and restoration have been shut down here.

All the above diseases are fatal to the individuals. Some of them are threatening entire species. And yet caving is the ONLY one where "HUMANS -- THOU SHALT NOT" is the answer. Caving is the only one where the participants are expected to pay for the privilege...to use their own time, resources, money, gas, etc., to collect information which the regulatory agency is then GIVEN. And when you do, for many years, your contributions are forgotten and your opinion no longer valued.

To me, this renders cavers 2nd class citizens. This is what angers me. WHY?

The agencies should have established caving permits years ago. The cavers should have asked for caving permits (not for X Cave...a permit, like a hunting or fishing permit, with a modest administration fee, a little rule book, and some modest penalties) at the same time. Instead of having to go through some group effort, like the CRF, or NSS or a grotto, responsible individuals should be permitted. You don't have to be a member of the NRA to get a hunting permit, or the Izzak Walton League one for fishing. This needs to be an individual thing....

You don't have to explain why you want to go hunting or fishing or boating or camping. You don't have to justify it. You do have to follow the rules. Why is caving being made an exception?

I disagree with John Lovaas about this being a wildlife emergency. It is no more an emergency than any of the other natural resource issues above. It just happens to be the one we are focused on. As someone with a geologic background, I never have truly understood why little furry things trump rocks and water. I just don't have those genes. It's just a matter of one's preferences. And mine are being tromped on, and I have little recourse, which is why I find this whole state of affairs extremely depressing.
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Re: Peter Youngbaer ROCKS!

Postby BrianC » Jun 28, 2011 2:52 pm

Teresa wrote:The point remains:

Deer are getting CWD. Hunting is still permitted on state and federal lands where it has been. Deer hunters are asked to report any sick deer they see, but they are not being asked to become cervid biologists.

Fish are getting any number of nasty things, from whirling disease, Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia, channel catfish virus, etc.. Fishing is still permitted on state and federal lands. Fishermen are asked to help with species surveys, but the state does this by attaching reward tags where the fishermen get between $10 and $100 depending on the survey for sending in the reward tag along with some catch data. They are not asked to become fisheries biologists. Anglers are told to eschew felt soled waders, to avoid spreading didymo.

Boaters are bombarded with public information on not spreading zebra mussels, and how to clean their boats. Campers are being assaulted with ads and even billboard telling them not to move any firewood to prevent emerald ashborer transfer. Boating and camping are still big bucks industries being encouraged as outdoor recreation. Neither boaters nor campers are expected to have any special expertise.

Cleanup and restoration have been activities I've been involved in for over 15 years. Anyone can help clean up a cave. This would seem to be a prime time to do so. But if caving has to be "work" to be justified, why not hunting, fishing, camping or boating? Cleanup and restoration have been shut down here.

All the above diseases are fatal to the individuals. Some of them are threatening entire species. And yet caving is the ONLY one where "HUMANS -- THOU SHALT NOT" is the answer. Caving is the only one where the participants are expected to pay for the privilege...to use their own time, resources, money, gas, etc., to collect information which the regulatory agency is then GIVEN. And when you do, for many years, your contributions are forgotten and your opinion no longer valued.

To me, this renders cavers 2nd class citizens. This is what angers me. WHY?

The agencies should have established caving permits years ago. The cavers should have asked for caving permits (not for X Cave...a permit, like a hunting or fishing permit, with a modest administration fee, a little rule book, and some modest penalties) at the same time. Instead of having to go through some group effort, like the CRF, or NSS or a grotto, responsible individuals should be permitted. You don't have to be a member of the NRA to get a hunting permit, or the Izzak Walton League one for fishing. This needs to be an individual thing....

You don't have to explain why you want to go hunting or fishing or boating or camping. You don't have to justify it. You do have to follow the rules. Why is caving being made an exception?

I disagree with John Lovaas about this being a wildlife emergency. It is no more an emergency than any of the other natural resource issues above. It just happens to be the one we are focused on. As someone with a geologic background, I never have truly understood why little furry things trump rocks and water. I just don't have those genes. It's just a matter of one's preferences. And mine are being tromped on, and I have little recourse, which is why I find this whole state of affairs extremely depressing.


It is apparent that cavers have gained to much knowledge and control over caves and the underground world! This cannot be tolerated by our government. The CBD could just be a well paid scapegoat?
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Re: Peter Youngbaer ROCKS!

Postby John Lovaas » Jun 28, 2011 3:35 pm

Teresa wrote: Deer are getting CWD. Hunting is still permitted on state and federal lands where it has been. Deer hunters are asked to report any sick deer they see, but they are not being asked to become cervid biologists.


and cavers who help agencies with mapping/monitoring/inventory aren't asked to become geographers or biologists either. And in WIsconsin's CWD zones, hunting still occurs- but the rules have very much changed. This, from a member of a family with a bunch of land in a CWD Zone, with a CWD positive deer that was harvested this winter.

And I don't know a soul in Wisconsin- on the agency or hunter side- who thinks the CWD issue was addressed properly. Nevermind that the prion that causes CWD persists in soils for long periods(unlike Gd), and the only thing the WIDNR asks hunters to 'decon' is their butchering equipment.

Boaters are bombarded with public information on not spreading zebra mussels, and how to clean their boats. Campers are being assaulted with ads and even billboard telling them not to move any firewood to prevent emerald ashborer transfer. Boating and camping are still big bucks industries being encouraged as outdoor recreation. Neither boaters nor campers are expected to have any special expertise.


I'd agree that most agencies have screwed the pooch as it relates to getting the "Cave Clean" message to the user groups they worry about- they are, with a few notable exceptions, not worried about the organzied caving community.

I know several folks- not scientists- who are helping with ash borer surveys- not rocket science, no special expertise needed. And it pays good money!

Cleanup and restoration have been activities I've been involved in for over 15 years. Anyone can help clean up a cave. This would seem to be a prime time to do so.


While I appreciate the value of cave cleanups and restoration, why would this be a prime time to do so? If the cave is closed, and the closure is effective- then there no impact. Of course, I understand it means that calcite deposition could cover up paint, mud, etc., and make future restoration work difficult or impossible.

In a holistic sense- does it help the cave as an ecosystem? I value restoration work- but it is aesthetic.

Caving is the only one where the participants are expected to pay for the privilege...to use their own time, resources, money, gas, etc., to collect information which the regulatory agency is then GIVEN.


Yes. What the hell is wrong with that? I beleive the correct term is altruism- and is generally considered to be a positive human trait I must also point out that your organized volunteer activities on public lands are entirely tax deductible.

And when you do, for many years, your contributions are forgotten and your opinion no longer valued.


My personal experience is that public agencies are doing an excellent job in retaining data. As to my "contributions"... my opinion should be valued only if it is valid, based on facts, evidence, and logic. Any imagined "seniority"- how long I've owned a helmet with a light mounted upon it, or how many years I've walked through a particular cave, is just that- imagination. No guarantee of any causal connection to the validity of any opinion. Opinions, sphincters,... we all have one.

To me, this renders cavers 2nd class citizens. This is what angers me. WHY?


That's your opinion. I don't feel like a second class citizen- I see hastily and poorly implemented disease management.

Instead of having to go through some group effort, like the CRF, or NSS or a grotto, responsible individuals should be permitted. You don't have to be a member of the NRA to get a hunting permit, or the Izzak Walton League one for fishing. This needs to be an individual thing....


And how would 'responsible' be defined? By individuals? Groups? Committees? Public agencies? Through an MOU? Imagine THAT Cavechat discussion thread ;-)

I disagree with John Lovaas about this being a wildlife emergency. It is no more an emergency than any of the other natural resource issues above. It just happens to be the one we are focused on.


It is a 'wildlife emergency'- like the other 'wildlife emergencies' you mentioned. I hope that I've made it clear that I am in no way happy with how this 'wildlife emergency' has been managed.

As someone with a geologic background, I never have truly understood why little furry things trump rocks and water. I just don't have those genes. It's just a matter of one's preferences.


Perhaps it is ecologic myopia. The Wisconsin DNR sees caves as nothing more than places where bats live, or as bat-free playhouses for cavers and don't grasp why people would care about invertebrates in the cave, if the cave were to be sealed so that no creature the size of a bat(or larger) would be excluded. I think the term DNR biologist David Redell used at the recent Arkansas WNS meeting was 'know-nothings'.

Caves aren't just rocks and water, aren't just furry things- they are ecosystems. And learning more about those ecosystems- and helping out where we can- might, on the most minimum and selfish of levels, cause our brains to generate more neurons. And we can all benefit from a few more neurons. Learning something new is good for our brains, and cooperating with others, some might argue, is beneficial to all.
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Re: Peter Youngbaer ROCKS!

Postby Teresa » Jun 28, 2011 6:04 pm

I speak up for the rocks and the water because some days it seems like bats are a trump card in any game you want to play. I agree with John to this extent: it is an ecosystem and PEOPLE are part of that ecosystem and have been for 100,000 years. Rocks and water have no voices, but we do.
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Re: Peter Youngbaer ROCKS!

Postby wyandottecaver » Jun 28, 2011 6:22 pm

the difference between "recreation" and "science" is sometimes quite small. That said, my opinion is the same as that one land manager and mirrors every public land agency I know, There has to be some "deliverable" back to the agency. Pure recreation won't fly.

The reality is that whether cavers have been treated better or worse than hunters and fishermen is debatable. Certainly we have endured more restrictions than other groups who interact with a diseased resource. Then again, I've never paid a dime for a caving permit or license here at home or when visiting TAG, but have paid a kings ransom for in and out of state hunting and fishing tags. In most cases the very act of hunting is providing a service to land managers, and the hunters pay to do it.....

My real issue, isn't what we can or cant do or how we have to do it....My real issue is that virtually NONE of those decisions have been based on reality....let alone science.
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Re: Peter Youngbaer ROCKS!

Postby Teresa » Jun 28, 2011 9:51 pm

I've seriously wondered about appealing the cave closure on the basis of freedom of religion.
One of those times I wish I had millions of dollars to just throw up into the sky....
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Re: Peter Youngbaer ROCKS!

Postby Rick Brinkman » Jul 17, 2011 1:45 am

Back to the topic...

Thank you Peter!! And please pass that along to your family, close friends, and YOUR cavers too.


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