Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

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Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby Teresa » Jun 8, 2011 2:06 pm

(I have excised parts of this news release to avoid spreading the same old tired lies. I do have to post the cave closure information for my paper. - Jo)

ROLLA, Mo. -- Mark Twain National Forest will continue to keep its caves closed to the public through April 2016.
Geomyces destructans, the fungus responsible for White Nose Syndrome, has now been detected in Missouri. White Nose Syndrome has not yet been confirmed in the state.
Mark Twain National Forest first closed caves to the public April 2009, then continued the closure for another year in 2010.
Mark Twain National Forest is home to more than 600 caves. Missouri is home to 14 kinds of bats, many of them living in caves, some on the endangered species list.
Forest Service biologist, Theresa Davidson, said bats are important to ecosystems because they eat millions of insects every night and their loss in record numbers could have major impacts on natural communities.
In addition to giving scientists more time to study what causes White Nose Syndrome, Davidson said closing the caves allows bats to hibernate undisturbed.
Disturbances during hibernation can cause bats to wake up and lose fat that they need to get through the hibernation period, increasing their already high mortality rate.
“Our objective is to minimize exposure of bat populations to any clothing or equipment that may be carrying the fungus responsible for White Nose Syndrome,” said Mark Twain National Forest Supervisor Dave Whittekiend. “We appreciate the public’s support in staying out of caves to help bats survive.”
Mark Twain National Forest is the largest public land manager in Missouri with 1.5 million acres in 29 counties in southern and central Missouri. Mark Twain National Forest’s mission is to continue to restore Missouri’s great outdoors and maintain a healthy, working forest.
For more information about Mark Twain National Forest, visit http://www.fs.usda.gov/mtnf
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby onebat » Jun 8, 2011 2:18 pm

2016??!!!!
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby Phil Winkler » Jun 8, 2011 2:48 pm

That seems like complete overkill to me. 5 years?

With absolutely no evidence to support it at all.
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby self-deleted_user » Jun 8, 2011 4:03 pm

Just when you thought some people started having some sense... (re the reopening of some caves recently posted) peeps have to go do stuff like this.
Self-deleted due to large troll population on the forum, and absence of moderation.
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby Pippin » Jun 8, 2011 4:06 pm

What?????? :doh:
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby Steve Pitts » Jun 8, 2011 5:25 pm

I am not surprised at all. The logic for these folks is like this: Cavers may be spreading WNS, maybe they are not, whatever the case, they are generally bad for the cave ecosystem. For an outsider, this *might* seem to make sense. For me, this sort of thinking is completely illogical, because I know that 95% of the people making these kinds of decisions know absolutely nothing about caves. This is the sort of logic employed by
bureaucrats that sit behind a desk and study charts all day.
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby tncaver » Jun 8, 2011 6:05 pm

Steve Pitts wrote:I am not surprised at all. The logic for these folks is like this: Cavers may be spreading WNS, maybe they are not, whatever the case, they are generally bad for the cave ecosystem. For an outsider, this *might* seem to make sense. For me, this sort of thinking is completely illogical, because I know that 95% of the people making these kinds of decisions know absolutely nothing about caves. This is the sort of logic employed by
bureaucrats that sit behind a desk and study charts all day.


This is the reason you need to write your US legislators to tell them to support the Government Savings Litigation Act. This is a proposal to limit the funds
that organizations like the CBD can rake in from our US Treasury due to not supporting their petitions. This is extremely important and every caver
in the US should be writing their US legislators to vote FOR this bill that is being proposed by legislators from Wyoming. If we can stop the CBD from
raking in millions of dollars from the US Treasury then we can stop their efforts to close every cave in the US by proclaiming ALL bats to be endangered.

THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!!!!!

Read this link or Google the Government Savings Litigation Act to find out how the CBD uses the Treasury and US taxpayers to promote their funky ideas.
http://tucsoncitizen.com/view-from-baja ... al-groups/
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby PYoungbaer » Jun 8, 2011 7:36 pm

2016? Blanket closure? This is ludicrous. Theresa deleted some language that is three years old, talking about the near-certainty of caver to bat transmission. The woman cited in the press release is not someone I know to have been involved in any of the WNS meetings; she most definitely was not at the Little Rock Symposium a couple of weeks ago.

I am pretty outraged that this sort of release could occur at this time. Particularly when Missouri only had a handful of bats last year test positive for Geomyces destructans, but not WNS, and this year's reports from Missouri Department of Conservation are that there is no evidence of WNS this year. Clean. Even the state is opening some of its caves.

I wonder if the Forest Unit knows how many caves are in the Mark Twain National Forest. How many are bat hibernacula or maternity or bachelor colony roosts? How many aren't bat caves at all? How does MTNF plan to enforce a blanket closure? With what resources? At what cost? Why not put that into actual scientific research, rather than spending time and money posting signs? Why 2016? That is the most extreme closure to date to my knowledge, although some other easter USFS units have done multiple year WNS closures.

I'd like to hear from some of the Missouri grottos and Speleological Survey folks, and even CRF, about their working relationships with MTNF. Were they consulted or even notified of this? Why not discuss a targeted closure? I hope those of you who are local make such inquiries and offers. They need to hear from you that this is unacceptable.

In fairness, Missouri is a leading edge state for WNS, so I'm not surprised they are extending the current closure order in some way. But people, please, let's be realistic about this. Personally, I'm so tired of seeing the same-old unscientific, anti-caver line that I can put it behind me and focus on trying to point out that what they are proposing simply doesn't make sense or work. Targeted closures, caver assistance, decon because it's a leading edge state, things like that should be acceptable, if temporary. But blanket until 2016? That's simply a recipe for failure, and for lack of respect from outside the Forest Service.

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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby wyandottecaver » Jun 8, 2011 8:44 pm

I have exactly ZERO specific information on this case.

However, all National Forests are managed by individual Forest Plans. Those plans are written on a cycle of.....you guessed it 5 years. One *possible* reason for the 2016 date is perhaps a way to avoid amending or re-drafting the Forest Plan until the next cycle.... :shrug:
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby Teresa » Jun 9, 2011 8:29 am

I'm not sure that makes sense. In 2009 they closed caves for one year. In 2010, they closed them for one year. Not great but we could live with that..periodic review and all. So yesterday they closed them for 5 years. (Ok, I know they can always rescind the closures.) But there was nothing in this NR that wasn't in the previous ones, giving a reason for the longer term.
That's what I'm curious about.
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby Steve Pitts » Jun 9, 2011 9:19 am

This is the reason you need to write your US legislators to tell them to support the Government Savings Litigation Act. This is a proposal to limit the funds
that organizations like the CBD can rake in from our US Treasury due to not supporting their petitions. This is extremely important and every caver
in the US should be writing their US legislators to vote FOR this bill that is being proposed by legislators from Wyoming. If we can stop the CBD from
raking in millions of dollars from the US Treasury then we can stop their efforts to close every cave in the US by proclaiming ALL bats to be endangered.

THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!!!!!


Absolutely TNcaver! I am

sp
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby wyandottecaver » Jun 9, 2011 5:20 pm

Teresa,

I'm in no way saying the 5 yr cycle is the reason, but while 1 yr closures are flexible, you have to go through the review (often involving public comment) and the standard FS paperwork every year. I think they may be just settling in for the long haul. By making a 5 yr closure they don't really have to expend much admin effort on it for 5 yrs. It also gets them off the hook for lawsuits while things are hot. In 5 yrs the CBD may not even care about WNS. It also doesn't preclude them from issuing special permits.

I will run ccounter to the prevailing opinion here and say that it actually makes good sense from their standpoint. MO is on the leading edge of WNS. Therefore it will almost certainly be at least 5 yrs before things "stabilize" there. Not a good choice based on science or serving the public...but reasonable from an administrative standpoint.
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby Teresa » Jun 9, 2011 10:47 pm

wyandottecaver wrote:Teresa,

I'm in no way saying the 5 yr cycle is the reason, but while 1 yr closures are flexible, you have to go through the review (often involving public comment) and the standard FS paperwork every year.


As far as I know, they are not doing this. I get public comment news releases on timber cuts, road closures, mining and exploration NEPA review proposals, calls for concessionaires, and just plain news releases like the fact that they will have free camping and day use this weekend. When they called cavers and agency people together in April 2009, it was to announce their decision, and let people rant, not to involve them in the process. We were told the decision had been made on the region level, that they had a little leeway on implementation, but not much. I'm sure if there were any general public comment involved in the cave closure process I would have heard about it. I've got enough tendrils out there in interesting places...Asking people already under permit is not a general public comment.

I will run counter to the prevailing opinion here and say that it actually makes good sense from their standpoint. MO is on the leading edge of WNS. Therefore it will almost certainly be at least 5 yrs before things "stabilize" there. Not a good choice based on science or serving the public...but reasonable from an administrative standpoint.


It does not make good sense, because the data they are citing is false, and out of date. It does not make good sense to alienate one of your best volunteer cohorts without involving their input. Finally, it does not make sense because with 1.5 million acres, much of it karst, enforcement is almost impossible. Instead of concentrating efforts on a few, very significant hibernacula and maternity colonies, a blanket ban is hard to defend. If it isn't a good choice based on science or serving the public, they are in violation of their mission statement.

One difficulty cavers have had for at least 60 years in Missouri is to get the agencies to recognize that not every person who visits a Missouri cave is a caver; and not every caver has the same interests. Agencies tend to give priority to mappers, and if you are not a cartographer (I am not) you thereby fall into to category of "you can't be a real caver." For at least 10-15 years, my grotto did near yearly cleanups at a well-used and well-known Forest Service cave. That sweat equity has bought us zero, no consideration over a 'regular citizen' since WNS showed up.

WNS has basically destroyed the agency volunteer base here. Some of us are still working to try to restore it, with intermittent success. We (These) are people well-known personally to agency people, who haven't changed either. The human relations fallout from WNS has been tremendous around here.

Like it or not, the US is not a nation ruled by the bats. It is ruled by people. There is no "us and them"...some of us are both us AND them. Although bat management is the proximate cause and cure, the issue is being framed as being between agency people and cavers. IT IS NOT. As horrible as bat deaths are, even more horrible is the deterioration of citizen/government relations over this. The bats are going to survive or not, but the people conflict will be more long lasting, I fear.
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby wyandottecaver » Jun 10, 2011 5:48 pm

I can't argue the fact that the decision has negative consequences. It certainly doesnt follow the science. But it almost certainly will reduce the amount of paperwork at the Forest and Region level. Something that will impact those employees directly, whereas poorer relations with cavers may not affect their workload at all, even if it does affect how good a job gets done. Sometimes, less paperwork is the "preferred option".
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Re: Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

Postby tncaver » Jun 10, 2011 7:15 pm

Teresa and EVERYONE else. This is why you need to write you US legislators and tell them what's going on. Tell them these blanket cave closures are
ridiculous and accomplish nothing. It appears that the cave closure situation continues to get worse. All the more reason for caver input to
stop BLANKET cave closures. Sure there are some caves that need to be closed for awhile, but not all of them.

Don't many of you feel like idiots now for not doing anything? Well, if you don't do something now YOUR ARE idiots.
Sorry for being so blunt.
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