Mark Twain National Forest closes caves to 2016

[Teresa]

Teresa and EVERYONE else. This is why you need to write you US legislators and tell them what's going on. Tell them these blanket cave closures are
ridiculous and accomplish nothing. It appears that the cave closure situation continues to get worse. All the more reason for caver input to
stop BLANKET cave closures. Sure there are some caves that need to be closed for awhile, but not all of them.

Don't many of you feel like idiots now for not doing anything? Well, if you don't do something now YOUR ARE idiots.
Sorry for being so blunt.

I don't feel like even one micro/nanno particle of an idiot. I've been in contact with one of my congressman's staffers for over a year, feeding him information. I'm doing what I can through my piece of the media to make sure the straight scoop gets out there. I've continued to raise questions and comments here. I've harangued cavers who largely (not entirely) feel this is a lost cause and have given up. I've dressed as a bat to spread the word to park naturalists who will be giving out WNS info and brochures to the public.

So no, I flunk the idiot test. *|:-)

[tncaver]

Teresa, you are not an idiot and thank you for doing what you can. If only the other 10,000 NSS members would be proactive and write their legislators
or contact the department heads of Agriculture, Interior and Defense to promote keeping most caves open rather than having blanket closures,
then we could go back to being happy cavers underground rather than typing on our computers.

[Cheryl Jones]

I've been in contact with one of my congressman's staffers for over a year, feeding him information. I'm doing what I can through my piece of the media to make sure the straight scoop gets out there. I've continued to raise questions and comments here. I've harangued cavers who largely (not entirely) feel this is a lost cause and have given up. I've dressed as a bat to spread the word to park naturalists who will be giving out WNS info and brochures to the public.

[Steve Pitts]

TNcaver: it is actually shocking how few cavers are actually doing anything. Most of the people in local grottos seem totally oblivious!

[tncaver]

TNcaver: it is actually shocking how few cavers are actually doing anything. Most of the people in local grottos seem totally oblivious!

It does seem that way to me too. Here in TN there are not a lot of caves closed because most are private owned anyway. But some of the best classic
caves and pits are closed because they are on state, federal or conservation land. It would seem however that cavers in the most affected states would be
jumping all over the chance to turn things around and get caves reopened.

[Steve Pitts]

Most people in TAG are just going about their merry way, as though nothing ever happened. My guess is that this is because, so far the cave closures have had no direct effect on most cavers. Also, there are a lot of caves on private land here that people can still visit. They just don't see the future implications, or have not had their favorite cave, or caving area closed. Cave closures and WNS are rarely, if ever discussed at our grotto meetings.

[BrianC]

Most people in TAG are just going about their merry way, as though nothing ever happened. My guess is that this is because, so far the cave closures have had no direct effect on most cavers. Also, there are a lot of caves on private land here that people can still visit. They just don't see the future implications, or have not had their favorite cave, or caving area closed. Cave closures and WNS are rarely, if ever discussed at our grotto meetings.

It appears that any one that stirs the water becomes blackballed. Oh well, it will be their loss too!

[tncaver]

It appears that any one that stirs the water becomes blackballed. Oh well, it will be their loss too!

Maybe I'm blackballed, but at least I've got the kahunas to stand up for what is right and for my rights.
I've been stirring the pot for the past four years and proud of it. I'm still caving too.
Haven't seen any WNS either but I do stay in a fairly limited area. I have seen quite a few healthy bats.
I noticed one cave in particular has a lot more bats this year than it did last year. They appear to be
Tri-Colors and all look healthy.

I have written my legislators and Fed department heads as well. Every caver in the nation should be doing that
to promote keeping NON BAT caves open and to encourage money for WNS research NOT cave gates which
do not keep infected bats out of caves.

[BrianC]

I have written my legislators and Fed department heads as well. Every caver in the nation should be doing that
to promote keeping NON BAT caves open and to encourage money for WNS research NOT cave gates which
do not keep infected bats out of caves.

I am right there with you tn. I have tried my darnedest to show other cavers what is wrong with the picture, I have written and directly corresponded with regulators. It appears that the few of us that care are just simply ignored! Facts are ignored as well! All of the conservancies are worried about their properties and don't see the big picture and the need to pull together to overcome this travesty! So I would imagine that the only solution at this point would be to begin a new national caving group that has the big picture in mind, and ask for the conservancies to join in if they so desire to continue to be allowed into their caves in the future. So little time left before the reality becomes law!

[tncaver]

Maybe, just maybe, the government is going to ignore the CBD and their petition. Unfortunately that will mean the CBD will probably collect
a bunch of money, or they might actually sue, but the CBD crisis may be over....until the next time they file a petition. Fortunately there is
legislation about to be presented that will hopefully stop them. Sorry, getting a bit

[PYoungbaer]

Most people in TAG are just going about their merry way, as though nothing ever happened. My guess is that this is because, so far the cave closures have had no direct effect on most cavers. Also, there are a lot of caves on private land here that people can still visit. They just don't see the future implications, or have not had their favorite cave, or caving area closed. Cave closures and WNS are rarely, if ever discussed at our grotto meetings.

After more than three years of working on WNS, I have to say it has always been difficult to get people to look beyond their own situations and see the big picture. Some people out west thought this was just a New England thing; some people down South (that's what we say up North) didn't seem worried, since their caves weren't affected. Some people on these pages have taken an attitude of it's not my problem, since I still have my private landowners I can go to. With all due respect to German theologian and pastor Martin Neimoller:

First, they denied access to cavers in the Northeast
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Northeastern caver.

Then they denied access to all recreational cavers
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't just a recreational caver.

They they denied access to project cavers
and I didn't speak out because I was a scientist.

Then they denied access to all geologists, hydrologists, paleontologists, archaeologists, and anthropologists
and I didn't speak out because I was a bat biologist.

And then they denied access to me, because all the bats had died and there was no reason for me to go in
but there was no one left to speak for me.


It's long past time when we all need to act as a Society, not separate individuals, regions, or projects. This is affecting all of us. It is also affecting those who have left our ranks, and those who have never joined.

[Mudduck]

Amen Peter. However, at some point I think its going to be grottos creating funds to help pay caving violations on GOV land. I think the only thing thats keeping people legal now is the hope that "Hey maybe next year they'll lift closures". 2016 is a LONG way off and it makes one question whether to stay legal or just say forget it I'll take my chances on public land with getting caught(I'm sure some are doing this anyway, would love to see a poll)

[BrianC]

Amen Peter. However, at some point I think its going to be grottos creating funds to help pay caving violations on GOV land. I think the only thing thats keeping people legal now is the hope that "Hey maybe next year they'll lift closures". 2016 is a LONG way off and it makes one question whether to stay legal or just say forget it I'll take my chances on public land with getting caught(I'm sure some are doing this anyway, would love to see a poll)

One of the reasons I left all group associations, NSS, Groto, etc because the fines are 10 times cheaper as individuals verses associations. Of course I also felt that not one single cave organization was actually helping the rest of us try to combat the closures early on. So cavers are where they are because of those groups not helping, and I now do not support any group. any one want to go caving?

[cave3d]

It appears that the few of us that care are just simply ignored! Facts are ignored as well! All of the conservancies are worried about their properties and don't see the big picture and the need to pull together to overcome this travesty! So I would imagine that the only solution at this point would be to begin a new national caving group that has the big picture in mind, and ask for the conservancies to join in if they so desire to continue to be allowed into their caves in the future. So little time left before the reality becomes law!

I also believe that a new caving group is needed that is willing to use law suits, FOIA requests, and civil disobedience to achieve its cave preservation objectives. The NSS great at playing the good cop role, but an organization willing to take the bad cop role is desperately needed.
The Forest Service has been using emergency procedures to implement cave closures. That allows them to skip taking public comments. It is an abuse of the emergency procedures to use them for a 5 year plan without getting public comment. The Mark Twain National Forest needs to be called on it.

I will be presenting a paper on the subject at NSS convention in the Western Perspectives on White Nose Syndrome Session. Here is the abstract for the paper.

Title FRIENDS OF THE CAVE?
Author Michael McEachern
Affiliations Alpine Karst Foundation, President
Northern Rocky Mountain Grotto, Chairman

Over the years various organizations have been formed to help appreciate and preserve elements of our natural resources. In some cases, an organization appeals to government to prevent the destruction of resources. In other cases, the goal of an organization is to prevent government from destroying the resources.

Caves have many unique resources. Efforts to protect one resource should not destroy another resource. For example, managers of Federal land should plan on doing full EIS before constructing cave gates to ensure that irretrievable archaeological, paleontological or biological resources are not destroyed.

Litigation, civil disobedience, and cooperation are all tactics that can be used to achieve resource management goals. All of these tactics have been used by cavers with various degrees of success to preserve caves and the karst landscape. The application of these strategies in the past at Mammoth Cave, Oregon Caves, and the Stanislaus River karst have all produced useful outcomes.

The Draft National WNS Plan is flawed. It devotes only two words to the single, most important aspect of a successful plan: “human dynamics”. Cavers will support, fund, and work with organizations that directly support public caving. They will vigorously work to keep public caving from being outlawed. Based on the knowledge of past events, public land managers should anticipate that all tactics will be used to preserve public caving.

[BrianC]

I also believe that a new caving group is needed that is willing to use law suits, FOIA requests, and civil disobedience to achieve its cave preservation objectives. The NSS great at playing the good cop role, but an organization willing to take the bad cop role is desperately needed.
The Forest Service has been using emergency procedures to implement cave closures. That allows them to skip taking public comments. It is an abuse of the emergency procedures to use them for a 5 year plan without getting public comment. The Mark Twain National Forest needs to be called on it.

I will be presenting a paper on the subject at NSS convention in the Western Perspectives on White Nose Syndrome Session. Here is the abstract for the paper.

Title FRIENDS OF THE CAVE?
Author Michael McEachern
Affiliations Alpine Karst Foundation, President
Northern Rocky Mountain Grotto, Chairman

Over the years various organizations have been formed to help appreciate and preserve elements of our natural resources. In some cases, an organization appeals to government to prevent the destruction of resources. In other cases, the goal of an organization is to prevent government from destroying the resources.

Caves have many unique resources. Efforts to protect one resource should not destroy another resource. For example, managers of Federal land should plan on doing full EIS before constructing cave gates to ensure that irretrievable archaeological, paleontological or biological resources are not destroyed.

Litigation, civil disobedience, and cooperation are all tactics that can be used to achieve resource management goals. All of these tactics have been used by cavers with various degrees of success to preserve caves and the karst landscape. The application of these strategies in the past at Mammoth Cave, Oregon Caves, and the Stanislaus River karst have all produced useful outcomes.

The Draft National WNS Plan is flawed. It devotes only two words to the single, most important aspect of a successful plan: “human dynamics”. Cavers will support, fund, and work with organizations that directly support public caving. They will vigorously work to keep public caving from being outlawed. Based on the knowledge of past events, public land managers should anticipate that all tactics will be used to preserve public caving.

Would love to be present for the presentation, just not an option right now. Good luck recruiting, cavers really do need it!