CBD Files Intent to Sue in 30 Days if Caves Not Closed

[batrotter]

Not THIS liberal!! First, I would suggest that your post is in violation of the Cavechat TOS. But more importantly, a huge number of your fellow cavers out here are pretty darned liberal thinking folks - The kind of folks who will defend your freedom to be a conservative in this great county of ours! Also folks who are willing to defend your (and our) right to cave. Please don't paint us with the broad brush of ignorance and hatefulness.

A "liberal" caver

Spoken like a true believer!

[trogman]

Perhaps we are going about this all wrong. Maybe it is time that we, (the NSS) took the feds to court and demanded our rights to access to public land. The fact is, the feds have already closed caves on most federally owned land in the east, just on the off chance that these caves might have some bats in them. This whole idea is ludicrous; to close an entire habitat to humans just because a specie or species might reside there, and because we might be transporting WNS on our gear or clothing, which might be transferred to the cave and/or the bats that might be living in said cave...well, you get the idea: altogether too many "mights” and not enough (if any) proven facts. I think we can concede to close caves that are known and established bat caves; this would require determining reasonable criteria to define exactly what a "bat cave" is. The burden of proof should be on the CBD and or the feds or whichever government agency to have to prove that a cave is a bat habitat. Otherwise, we, as members of the public, should have a right to enjoy publically owned resources.
I don't know if such a lawsuit is even within the scope or rights of an organization like the NSS, being that we are considered a "scientific organization." I know that we don't officially have any lawyers on staff, but I am sure there are many amongst our membership who could volunteer some time and effort for such a cause. Otherwise, we face the prospect of more and more cave closures on both federal and state-owned land. While the feds may fight this CBD lawsuit, there is a possibility that they will just go along with them so as to avoid the expense and hassle of a long legal battle. Besides that, they (the feds) have already shown here in the east that they agree with the closure policy, so there is no reason to believe that they will not extend it to the western states as well.

Trogman

[BrianC]

Perhaps we are going about this all wrong. Maybe it is time that we, (the NSS) took the feds to court and demanded our rights to access to public land. The fact is, the feds have already closed caves on most federally owned land in the east, just on the off chance that these caves might have some bats in them. This whole idea is ludicrous; to close an entire habitat to humans just because a specie or species might reside there, and because we might be transporting WNS on our gear or clothing, which might be transferred to the cave and/or the bats that might be living in said cave...well, you get the idea: altogether too many "mights” and not enough (if any) proven facts. I think we can concede to close caves that are known and established bat caves; this would require determining reasonable criteria to define exactly what a "bat cave" is. The burden of proof should be on the CBD and or the feds or whichever government agency to have to prove that a cave is a bat habitat. Otherwise, we, as members of the public, should have a right to enjoy publically owned resources.
I don't know if such a lawsuit is even within the scope or rights of an organization like the NSS, being that we are considered a "scientific organization." I know that we don't officially have any lawyers on staff, but I am sure there are many amongst our membership who could volunteer some time and effort for such a cause. Otherwise, we face the prospect of more and more cave closures on both federal and state-owned land. While the feds may fight this CBD lawsuit, there is a possibility that they will just go along with them so as to avoid the expense and hassle of a long legal battle. Besides that, they (the feds) have already shown here in the east that they agree with the closure policy, so there is no reason to believe that they will not extend it to the western states as well.

Trogman

Remember, once it has been legally shown that federal caves be closed, it will quickly funnel down to private caves. It is evident that this is the real goal and intent! Don't be fooled by legal terminology and think for a second that it would stop at federal lands.

[batrotter]

Perhaps we are going about this all wrong. Maybe it is time that we, (the NSS) took the feds to court and demanded our rights to access to public land.

I don't want to be too pessimistic, (but I am), there is no possible way to sue the feds and win.

[JR-Orion]

We are fewer and poorer than the CBD and except for Peter, far less ably led.

but we have a cave troll.

Is that a Lord of the Rings reference? Nice.

On a different note, this CBD thing brings to mind a line from a different movie-
"I just threw up in my mouth a little bit."
From Dodgeball.

Anyway, is there anything we can do about this? Is this even enough of a threat to take seriously? The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and this group seems to make a lot of noise.

[tncaver]

I found 3 serious errors in the letter in the course of drinking one cup of coffee. I would hope that our nation's Secretaries of Agriculture, Defense, and Interior, and the directors of the BLM, USFS, and USFWS see the BS in this as well as I can.'

John,
You are a well qualified person to tell the BLM, USFW, USFWS, and Secretaries of Agriculture, Defense and the Interior about those three serious errors.
A letter from a non scientist such as myself obviously does no good, as I've written them in the past with no effect. However, someone with your credentials
and other credentialed scientists should get on board and write those people. Perhaps real scientists might have some pull with them. After all, this is
a science issue as well as a common sense issue. Obviously the CBD lacks both.

Quite frankly if the CBD does sue, I hope their case will be proven to be faulty and then maybe non hibernacula caving can recover somewhat.
Scientists may need to step up to the plate and testify if they ever want to step foot in a publicly owned cave again.

[trogman]

Perhaps we are going about this all wrong. Maybe it is time that we, (the NSS) took the feds to court and demanded our rights to access to public land.

I don't want to be too pessimistic, (but I am), there is no possible way to sue the feds and win.

Maybe so, but that is exactly what the CBD is doing.

Remember, once it has been legally shown that federal caves be closed, it will quickly funnel down to private caves. It is evident that this is the real goal and intent! Don't be fooled by legal terminology and think for a second that it would stop at federal lands.

This is true, unfortunately. Not to mention state-owned lands, which are already closed to caving in some states.

This thing has really got me riled up!

Trogman

[Scott McCrea]

The CBD has a website where you can sign a form letter supporting their efforts that will be sent to the USFS. I signed one.

What!

Calm down. I signed it "Don't Close Caves." and "Bats spread WNS" and "Closures Don't work" and "Support WNS research"

[LukeM]

The CBD has a website where you can sign a form letter supporting their efforts that will be sent to the USFS. I signed one.

What!

Calm down. I signed it "Don't Close Caves." and "Bats spread WNS" and "Closures Don't work" and "Support WNS research"

Scott, I thought about doing the same, but then I realized that if the Forest Service is getting hundreds or thousands of form letters like this all with the subject line "Protect Bats From White-Nose Syndrome, Close Caves", whatever we may say in the contents may get overlooked and just lumped into the rest of the "close caves" messages. Be careful.

[boogercaver71]

We are fewer and poorer than the CBD and except for Peter, far less ably led.

but we have a cave troll.

Is that a Lord of the Rings reference? Nice.

On a different note, this CBD thing brings to mind a line from a different movie-
"I just threw up in my mouth a little bit."
From Dodgeball.

Anyway, is there anything we can do about this? Is this even enough of a threat to take seriously? The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and this group seems to make a lot of noise.

I know for a fact that the upper echelon at Mammoth are taking them seriously.The CBD has the money and the political clout to make alot of waves on K street.

[John Lovaas]

I know for a fact that the upper echelon at Mammoth are taking them seriously.

As someone who caves regularly at Mammoth, ran a CRF expedition two months ago, currently sits on the CRF BoD, and counts some of the 'upper echelon' at Mammoth as good friends-

I'm not aware of any facts that would support your statement 'the upper echelon at Mammoth are taking them(CBD) seriously.'

Project cavers are still caving there, wild cave tours are still running, tourists walk across a biomat. Not so bad.

[Teresa]

Perhaps we are going about this all wrong. Maybe it is time that we, (the NSS) took the feds to court and demanded our rights to access to public land.

I don't want to be too pessimistic, (but I am), there is no possible way to sue the feds and win.

Um, yes there is. You can also stop federal projects. It takes a lot, of course, but it can be done. I've seen it.

Lawsuits can also be used as delaying tactics. The one thing that CBD has done in shooting themselves in the foot is by including mines on federal lands. You can sometimes stop mines from being opened, but shutting down an existing and operating claim is practically futile. We can use this to our advantage.

[John Lovaas]

John,
You are a well qualified person to tell the BLM, USFW, USFWS, and Secretaries of Agriculture, Defense and the Interior about those three serious errors.
A letter from a non scientist such as myself obviously does no good, as I've written them in the past with no effect. However, someone with your credentials
and other credentialed scientists should get on board and write those people.

tn-

I am not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination. Not even scientificish! ;-) I have a BA in (very pre-digital)photography, and have, at various times, worked as a printer, mill worker, shipping clerk, locomotive operator, motorcycle mechanic, merchandiser, and graphic artist.

We all should write to these people- nevermind the 'credentials'.

[tncaver]

Scott, I thought about doing the same, but then I realized that if the Forest Service is getting hundreds or thousands of form letters like this all with the subject line "Protect Bats From White-Nose Syndrome, Close Caves", whatever we may say in the contents may get overlooked and just lumped into the rest of the "close caves" messages. Be careful.

LukeM is right. Do you think anyone really reads the contents of form letters? Scott's statement would likely be overlooked. However, I bet that a personal letter to a government official will be read.

We are not going to change the mind of the CBD. It is our government officials that need to know the facts and see how the public feels. They answer to us. The CBD does not.

[tncaver]

John,
You are a well qualified person to tell the BLM, USFW, USFWS, and Secretaries of Agriculture, Defense and the Interior about those three serious errors.
A letter from a non scientist such as myself obviously does no good, as I've written them in the past with no effect. However, someone with your credentials
and other credentialed scientists should get on board and write those people.

tn-

I am not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination. Not even scientificish! ;-) I have a BA in (very pre-digital)photography, and have, at various times, worked as a printer, mill worker, shipping clerk, locomotive operator, motorcycle mechanic, merchandiser, and graphic artist.

We all should write to these people- nevermind the 'credentials'.

Well said Mr. Lovaas. We should all write these people regardless of credentials. BTW, I have some of the same credentials as yourself. It's a small world.