Fish and Wildlife Service Unveils National Plan to Combat De

[tncaver]

Teresa, the purpose of the document is to provide a means for collecting and disseminating data across multiple agencies. .

I simply do not believe this, batgirl.

Believe it Teresa. Government agencies definitely want to start collecting and disseminating data across multiple agencies.
In this case, the data is cave locations, hibernacula locations, WNS data, and even a list of known cavers. In some ways that
could be a good thing but in other ways it is most likely just bad for caving.

The government is doing it's best to alienate cavers. Not a very smart thing to do in my opinion. However, it seems that our very own
NSS is trying to do the same thing. Now that is truly sad.

[Teresa]

Tncaver, you are misrepresenting what I have said. I don't believe in interagency government conspiracies. I know too much how government agencies operate. There are too many conflicting agendas and rules for conspiracies to be possible.

The concept that this is a way for government agencies to *begin* to cooperate is what I don't believe. They have been cooperating for decades, in my experience. So? That's just status quo.

[tncaver]

Tncaver, you are misrepresenting what I have said. I don't believe in interagency government conspiracies. I know too much how government agencies operate. There are too many conflicting agendas and rules for conspiracies to be possible.

The concept that this is a way for government agencies to *begin* to cooperate is what I don't believe. They have been cooperating for decades, in my experience. So? That's just status quo.

Teresa, I'm not misrepresenting you. What I said is my opinion. You can believe what you want to. I think a LOT of cavers need to open their eyes
and see the reality of the situation. I said the agencies are about control. Government is all about control. It gets worse every year. If you don't
believe this then you need to pull your head out of the sand. You have your opinion and I have mine. Every time I hear about agency
meetings I hear of them asking for us to share our information and labor with them. As more agencies become involved, this will require sharing info
among agencies (example: Depts, of Agriculture, Interior, Defense, USFWS, BLM, etc.). They want OUR info so they can share it amongst
themselves. How hard is that to understand? What they do with that info is what scares me. I've not seen anything good happening with that info
in my area or most of the US. Only a few states are being reasonable. Most of those don't have WNS.

[Batgirl]

Teresa, the purpose of the document is to provide a means for collecting and disseminating data across multiple agencies. Agencies don't typically communicate with each other. That was obvious after 9/11. So the purpose of this document is to allow communication and data to flow freely amongst differing groups. As Peter said, they are still working on the implementation plan. That will be the nuts and bolts of it - where the rubber meets the road. That's what we need to be concerned about - IMHO.

I simply do not believe this, batgirl. Maybe some law enforcement agencies don't communicate (out here we do and that is called "mutual aid") but natural resource agencies do, at least in Missouri. They don't always agree, because of differing mission statements, but the do communicate. We have too many joint projects and too many joint area management responsibilities for people not to talk with each other. The community is small enough that one is rarely beyond two degrees of separation from someone you need to reach. I just came from a training (still going on) where there are DNR-DSP (state parks), Missouri Dept of Conservation, and Army Corps of Engineers personnel all together for three days. We've got 3 agencies and 2 or 3 stakeholder groups working on elk reintroduction. I've been to so many inter-agency meetings since 1989, I can't count them all.

It's fairly obvious, though, after rereading the document and this discussion, that this is NOT a national plan to combat WNS; it is a national *agency* plan to combat WNS. If you aren't in an agency, the contents are somewhat irrelevant and the communication top down.

This is where the NSS, BCI and other NGOs got disrespected at the starting gate. Instead of drafing a truly national plan involving all cave and bat stakeholders, it is a plan involving only governmental entities. So sad.

Your right Teresa, it IS a national agency plan to combat WNS and while I agree that some agencies do communicate at a local or regional level, there are many that don't communicate at the top or national levels. Here in TAG, we (cavers) are involved and do communicate with local DNR, FS, FWS and Nature Conservancy staff on a regular basis. In fact, I was one of the first people to reach out to the state and federal folks in TN and GA. I invited them to both SERA and TAG to learn about us and to show them the invaluable knowledge base that cavers have on bats, cave biology and Karst conservation. This has helped tremendously.

I have had many conversations with these folks about various issues, most notably the lack of real regional migratory data between states to fill knowledge gaps. For example, Tennessee has some data on bat migration and habits, but from what i can tell, that is only based on data collected from Arnold Air Force Base, which they are required to document and only pertains to TN. GA doesn't have any data. Alabama has quite a bit of knowledge about their bats but none of this information is being coordinated or shared at a regional or even at a national level to my knowledge. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think that is what this plan is trying to accomplish. Again, this document doesn't actually do anything except provide a means for gathering and sharing data to answer unanswered questions. The crux of the plan will be in the implementation portion which IMHO is potentially the most damaging. Just my .02. Perhaps you or someone else can chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

[cavermom]

I said the agencies are about control. Government is all about control. It gets worse every year....

Only a few states are being reasonable. Most of those don't have WNS.

Coming from TN, I think you are right. TN seems to be one of the more "controlling" and non-listening/cooperating agencies involved.

Fortunately, I'm from one of the "reasonable" states, so perhaps that's why I am seeing this plan as more "reasonable". I think of our state DNR as the product of public outcry, not govt control. Most, if not all, of our laws and rules were created because of public outcry to protect the environment. Perhaps the enforcement of those laws and rules could be seen as "control". Laws and Rules get created because there are idiots out there who don't care what or who get's hurt by their stupidity.

I agree with you that many agencies don't talk. Perhaps some do, but our DNR is divided into Divisions and Branches and they don't effectively talk. That is one of the things we are working on, though - more consistency. Sounds like most of the agencies dealing with WNS have already created a path of good communication with eachother, though. You'd be hard pressed to find any WNS information that our DNR WNS people don't know and aren't communicating with other agencies about.