The WNS "jump" sites

[David Grimes]

I was just browsing the internet and the USFWS website in the WNS area. I decided to click on a link about decontamination procedures and was surprised to find that they specifically mention that they are concerned humans spread WNS because of the few "jump" sites. It says that the sites were likely infected by humans because they were all heavily visited caves that contained few bats. I was not aware that the jump sites were heavily visited, is this true and which sites are they considering the jump sites?

[Scott McCrea]

Dear USFWS,

Please stop using the term "jump." It is not science. It is speculation and assumption. If you don't know why, you should not be doing science.

Sincerely,

Cave Jumpers of America

[David Grimes]

I was really more curious because they mention these caves are popular enough that cavers would travel from WNS areas just to visit these particular caves but as far as I know none of the "jump" sites were in the general TAG area. I believe the alleged Oklahoma bat is one of the sites they are referring to and like wyandottecaver said when that info first came out, who goes to Oklahoma to go caving?

[nathanroser]

who goes to Oklahoma to go caving?

Some person I know up here in Syracuse went in some random pothole in Oklahoma years ago. As far as this "jump" idea goes it's really the only thing that supports the possibility of human transmission, but is really just a speculation. The Oklahoma bat tested positive for the fungus, but someone else here who knows a bit more about mycology says that similar fungi in the Geomyces genus can appear to be G. destructans when tested. The other jump people look at is how WNS was confirmed in southern NY the winter of 2007-2008, and suddenly the next year appeared as far south as VA, and WV. But if you look at the new cases across Pennsylvania for the winter of 2008-2009 it follows a path right along a major cave and mine region there. It is said that the distance between souther NY and the counties in the Virginias are outside the annual flight range of a bat. What I think happened is that NY bats spread it to PA bats, then the PA bats went further south the same year since different colonies intermix during summer and fall. So the disease did not in fact "jump", it was relayed between different colonies along the same migration corridor.

[BrianC]

who goes to Oklahoma to go caving?

Some person I know up here in Syracuse went in some random pothole in Oklahoma years ago. As far as this "jump" idea goes it's really the only thing that supports the possibility of human transmission, but is really just a speculation. The Oklahoma bat tested positive for the fungus, but someone else here who knows a bit more about mycology says that similar fungi in the Geomyces genus can appear to be G. destructans when tested. The other jump people look at is how WNS was confirmed in southern NY the winter of 2007-2008, and suddenly the next year appeared as far south as VA, and WV. But if you look at the new cases across Pennsylvania for the winter of 2008-2009 it follows a path right along a major cave and mine region there. It is said that the distance between souther NY and the counties in the Virginias are outside the annual flight range of a bat. What I think happened is that NY bats spread it to PA bats, then the PA bats went further south the same year since different colonies intermix during summer and fall. So the disease did not in fact "jump", it was relayed between different colonies along the same migration corridor.

We were able to determine this the second that it occurred, but we were ignored because it didn't fit the USFWS agenda! That is not surprising when you look at the insecticide usage costs supposedly associated with bat deaths in the north that they are using now,and asking for more money because of. Totally out of this region by factual concerns, but they are still using this. Funny thing is, they must know that they are misleading the public, or they are just plain stupid. Either way, they should either be jailed, or look for work that they are qualified for like flipping hamburgers.

This should not be against the TOS because it is relevant!

[NZcaver]

Dear USFWS,

Please stop using the term "jump." It is not science. It is speculation and assumption. If you don't know why, you should not be doing science.

Sincerely,

Cave Jumpers of America

[wyandottecaver]

yea, the USFWS should start a daytime talk show right after jerry springer. The "jumps" to heavily visited caves was in fact 1 jump. From NY to VA. The heavily visited cave had few bats. BUT was very close to another major hibernacula....... The fact that many PA bat sites are crevices not accessible to people means we dont even know if this was a real "jump". Finally, the "jump" was indeed farther than the *normal* annual ranges of bat movement. It was well within recorded single-bat flying distances from tracking data though.

Just because I do most of my caving in a 100 mile radius doesn't mean I haven't before, or can't go farther, and it certainly doesn't apply to the TAG junkies in my grotto who may travel 400-500 miles every other weekend.

Most of the other "jumps" have indeed been to gated, infrequently visited caves....well they are frequented by bats

[PYoungbaer]

Here's another fact about the so-called "jump" - according to the Northeastern Cave conservancy cave visitation database, which is cited by the USFWS, less than 20% of the visited caves listed were checked the next year, and there are literally hundreds of others unchecked by wildlife biologists. This was due to the funding streams supporting primarily only endangered bat monitoring.

Another fact: the "jump" cave affected bat was discovered by a newbie caver with a camera. It's entirely possible that there were many infected caves in between, but only because people were observant and reporting did this get described as a "jump."

It is indeed speculation.

[BrianC]

Here's another fact about the so-called "jump" - according to the Northeastern Cave conservancy cave visitation database, which is cited by the USFWS, less than 20% of the visited caves listed were checked the next year, and there are literally hundreds of others unchecked by wildlife biologists. This was due to the funding streams supporting primarily only endangered bat monitoring.

Another fact: the "jump" cave affected bat was discovered by a newbie caver with a camera. It's entirely possible that there were many infected caves in between, but only because people were observant and reporting did this get described as a "jump."

It is indeed speculation.

Given the facts that these speculations were created by myth, would it be safe to say that asking for restrictions from caving to be lifted, would be in perfect order? Demanded?

[JSDunham]

Another fact: the "jump" cave affected bat was discovered by a newbie caver with a camera. It's entirely possible that there were many infected caves in between, but only because people were observant and reporting did this get described as a "jump."
It is indeed speculation.

Actually, I think there were definitely infected caves in between--if I recall correctly, the alleged "jump" was measured from the WNS initial sites to one site in VA, ignoring the possibility of leap-frogging through known infected sites in south-western NY and at least highly suspect sites in PA.

And unless some caver grabbed a bat in NY and dropped it in OK, outliers can fly several hundred miles.

[Teresa]

The first Missouri WNS cave reported is on private land, and only very very infrequently visited by active cavers. The cave is pretty tight in places, mostly undecorated, and contains trash. It is one of the larger caves in that county and pretty well-known to locals but it is a significant bat cave.

Missouri has more show caves than any other state; to my knowledge, all these are clean, as are well-known and moderately heavily visited caves on public land, even though public land cave closures here are only one to two years old, Many to most of our significant caves have some bats in them sometime during the year.

[MUD]

Actually, I think there were definitely infected caves in between--if I recall correctly, the alleged "jump" was measured from the WNS initial sites to one site in VA, ignoring the possibility of leap-frogging through known infected sites in south-western NY and at least highly suspect sites in PA.

This pic was taken in August 2008 in a small unknown central PA. cave. Huntingdon County. I don't know what it is but it looked weird enough to photograph.

[PYoungbaer]

Curious picture - especially for the summer. One of the bat noses looks like it has a spot - but no way to really tell. I've seen lots of bats with marks like that on their arms and ears. Sometimes it's WNS; sometimes not. Without a lab test, we'll never know.

[MUD]

Here's one taken at the same cave in January 2009. Without a lab test we'll never know huh? Haven't seen any bats in this particular cave since. Sad.

[PYoungbaer]

Looks like WNS to me.

It's interesting that the latest European study shows that the Geomyces destructans fungus is hardly present early winter, but overtakes 70% or more of the bat colony by spring. Yet, no mortalities.

We see the same growth pattern here in the U.S. - little visible presence in early winter, but then, wham. However, our bats die. What's the difference? (Note: that's a rhetorical question without an answer at the moment).