WNS confirmed in Kentucky

[dfcaver]

Who has the list of cave owners? In Pennsylvania, the state has it because cavers GAVE it to them.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/se ... tocols_pdf

Section of page 3 of the document:

II. Protocols for Locating and Surveying Potential Hibernacula
Hibernacula (natural caves, mines, tunnels, and other underground workings) within the project area should be located using mineral literature (The Pennsylvania Cave Database, maps and records from the Office of Surface Mining, and the PA Bureau of Abandoned Mines) and properly investigated by a USFWS approved bat consultant.
Due to the increased bat activity around such sites and/or the presence of threatened and endangered species, Hibernacula of Concern on or within five miles of a proposed wind development site triggers bat monitoring efforts. The Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) will notify the developer if such a hibernaculum is known on or within five miles of the proposed project and the developer should enter into consultation with the PGC to determine if additional protection or investigation will be useful to siting turbines. The PGC may conduct a survey in or around the project area for potential hibernacula that are not currently known and survey them for the developer. In the event that the PGC survey results confirm a previously unknown hibernaculum the PGC will notify the Cooperator and further coordination will be required. If a mine is located and contains multiple entrances, then all the bats captured at each entrance will be added together to determine if the site qualifies as a Hibernaculum of Concern

PA cavers built, maintained and continually updated The Pennsylvania Cave Database; that information was shared with the Pennsylvania Game Commission to add in conservation issues, such as the windmill issue noted above. Could the PGC use it to contact cave owners? Absolutely, although a fair amount of the info would be out of date. If KY cavers have worked with state agencies in the past, that's certainly one route that the state would have such a list. Those organized cavers...I guess it's a bit late to debate whether or not this was a good idea.

I don't think there's a privacy issue here, though. The county probably already has your property published online, with a map, overhead satellite photo, your purchase price, your current and past taxes, and if you're up to date. If they don't, they're working on it. Some counties include details as small as the number of plumbing fixtures. I have two commodes, if anyone needs to know....

[tncaver]

The real irony here is that the USFWS is threatening people to close their caves while continuing to keep "their" commercial caves open.

[Crockett]

However the letter was sent out to cave owners (who has that list of names and addresses?)

You are asking the right question. The KSS has the most extensive list but it has not been given to KDNR.

It would probably require a FOIA request and some court action to get the KDNR mailing list (assuming one exists). My guess is that not many letters were sent and those went to bat cave owners that were being monitored by KDNR for WNS.

KDNR has not published a closed cave list to any of the cavers or anybody else I know. They are probably depending on the KSS closed cave list.

http://www.ksscaves.org/member_services ... _list.html

Granted this could reveal, to a county level, the location of a previously unknown cave (and with the KDNR method the owner name).

The bottom line, in the real world if you will: the possible bad thing has not happened. The state had neither the data to do much damage nor the cooperation/resources to get more. They have been given some critical locations but not a comprehensive list. They are becoming more aware...I hope.

I don't have information about this for the whole state. Somebody may. These are just my opinions from my corner.

Kentucky land owners in my neck of the woods are aware of their rights, sensitive to government intervention and not shy about taking action when needed. No need to wake up the politicians and alienate the bureaucrats for this one.

Caves on state land are closed but I anticipate asking for permits this summer for survey and inventory of some. I anticipate access with conditions, like decon. Good enough.

I can hardly wait for the outpouring of adoration and respect from my friends here on Cavechat after this post.

[BrianC]

Caves on state land are closed but I anticipate asking for permits this summer for survey and inventory of some. I anticipate access with conditions, like decon. Good enough.

Well, now you see that working with cavers (not insulting them) will get what information that is relevant, as opposed to cavers working with (for) them that enhances resentment. The government organizations are there for us, not us being there for them.

[HKalnitz]

WNS and its effects are so complex and devisive, that there is not a one size fites all answer.

My good friend Mr. Crockett (who I call Mike!) is right. The KSS has an extensive list of cave locations and keep a closed cave status list . We were approached 2 years ago for data from the KYFWS/KYDNR, not for locations, but for ownership information. They ALREADY had the location information gathered over many years of Bat biologist field trips. We were informally apprached again this year for additional information. We have turned these down, because, as an official State Survey, we need the trust of those cavers that the information they share with us will be safeguarded. In our case, ownership of information literally stays with the submitter. As a non-gonverment organization, FOIA requests can get no traction with us. What information they have, they have gathered over years of effort, not from a single caver or organization sharing data

However, because WNS is a real and deadly phenomena, several rabid cave protectionalists have decided to share limited information with Brooke Slacke. I have taken her to locations to monitor bats for effects in caves she only had vague locations on. Her decision to mail letters to cave owners is an unfortunate one, and lost her some respect in the caving community, but we believe she is trying to do her best in a terrible situation. The letters had little traction as well, as Kentucky cave owners choose to believe the established relationships with cavers they had built over years, rather then a letter from the guv'ment.
And before you squeel about sharing a cave location, let me tell you that this was a caver owned cave (Owned by Rockcastle KArst Conservancy ,www.rkci.org), so we are acting as cavers AND land owners. And we didn't receive a letter (which leads me to believe the DNR database is not extensive).

We have also cooperated with the DNR/F&W in that we are surveying caves to provide maps for the biologists to track populations, we expect this to continue this year as well.

We must make our choices as to what we will do. We can either believe the government, which may be full of well meaning people who are handicapped by rules and regulations, the ultraconservationalists, who would use this to shut down all cave access (CBD anyone?), or cavers who are so het up about this, they see conspiracies behind every stalagetite.
I personally take the middle road - WNS is real and I will do whatever I can to limit its spread - limiting cave visits and deconning like a sonofabitch. But as a caver, i will reserve any belief that the goverment has cavers interests in mind, and make informed choices on when and where to cave.

Howard Kalnitz
Vicechair - KSS
Chair RKC

[PYoungbaer]

Kentucky's response to WNS causes debate on management techniques:

http://www.timesleader.net/articles/stories/public/201104/17/57dd_news.html

[NZcaver]

Kentucky's response to WNS causes debate on management techniques:

http://www.timesleader.net/articles/stories/public/201104/17/57dd_news.html

From the above link:

The practice of “not doing anything,” as Carr called it, has been tested in the other 15 states where the disease has been found, and she believes it has obviously not stopped the spread.

“For those folks that said ‘why do that?’ (I say) look at the northeast,” said Carr, referring to the region of the U.S. where the disease first began to spread. “We know the results: The bats die. We know what doing nothing does, and it’s unsuccessful.”

No sh*t, Sherlock! It's called "letting nature run its course."

Not to say that we shouldn't minimize disturbance to bats of course, and continuing encouraging research, etc. But the "do something so we're not seen to be doing nothing" approach is just plain silly, in my opinion. Despite obvious differences, this makes no more sense than some of the CBD proposals.

[wyandottecaver]

well I have argued extensively for this approach (albeit earlier in the cycle and killing ALL the bats, not just the suspect ones). I actually agree with Carr here. Those bats they killed would have died. This way they *might* demonstrate a useful technique. If not, then we at least tried.

I know Merlin and BCI don't like it. Duh, they dont make money by saying kill bats they make it by saying save them. I know Merlin, I also know personally he can be wrong or make pretty shaky assumptions about the biology. No one, anywhere, can show any bat or remnant group of an infected colony, in North America that has any suggestion of resistance. Period. I think 2/3 of the Eastern US and in excess of 1.5 million bats already dead is a good enough sample size for the "resistance" theory.

I think they should have remove the entire colonies of the first few sites in KY. It quite literally can't hurt anything at all. It may not help either, but if you don't try an option you won't know.

[NZcaver]

well I have argued extensively for this approach (albeit earlier in the cycle and killing ALL the bats, not just the suspect ones). I actually agree with Carr here. Those bats they killed would have died. This way they *might* demonstrate a useful technique. If not, then we at least tried.

An approach which might work with domesticated and farmed animals, and some wildlife - IF all infected animals are already well-contained and can't FLY! Otherwise, all you're really doing is possibly slowing the spread down a little. If you're buying time to find a cure, then this could be a good thing. But back in the real world, will it really achieve anything long-term?

[wyandottecaver]

Yes, I'd say your mostly right, but what can it hurt?

I certainly agree that at this point, it's a bit late. I also agree that for KY in the real world the best we can hope for is probably to slow it. I have little doubt that TN and IN will provide plenty enough carriers for KY this spring and next yr. However, if we applied this consistently to all the states on the western front of WNS for 2-4 yrs, we might be able to reduce the available carriers enough to greatly delay or maybe stop WNS from reaching farther west. Of course in the real world that won't happen.

Still, while I am skeptical of there being a useful level of either inherent or aquired resistance in Myotis spp at this point, if there was, removing the actively infected bats and allowing the survivors to be exposed at the (presumably less intense)environmental level first might be the best way to promote it. Are you more likely to resist getting a cold sitting next to someone sick or just sitting in the same chair after they left?