PBS: Scientists Scramble to Understand Deadly 'White-Nose Sy

[Squirrel Girl]

On the News Hour with Jim Lehrer, March 9, 2010

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/ ... -headlines)

[LukeM]

Every time I hear the "Howe Caverns as point of origin" idea expressed so strongly these days I have to wonder if that sort of confidence by biologists - and therefore reporters - is unjustified. Considering what we now know about incubation periods for Gd, is there any strong reason to believe it didn't originate in any other cave in the region? The bats could have just as easily picked it up a year or two before in another cave and started showing strong signs of the disease once they made their way to Howe. I understand that the high amount of out-of-town traffic in the cave is the assumed vector for the disease, but there's no evidence to suggest that that hypothesis is any better than others, such as a stowaway bat having hitched a ride from Europe and ending up in the area.

[PYoungbaer]

Luke,

I understand your point. However, it remains true that the first documentation of WNS is the series of photos taken by Paul Rubin in the Howes Cave (non-commercial) section of Howe Caverns in 2006. Given the other four caves in the area where it was first noticed (Gage Caverns, Schoharie Caverns, Knox Cave, and Hailes Cave) in 2007 were either highly visited (all but Hailes), or regularly surveyed (Hailes by NYDEC), and no one noticed anything, much less the mass mortalities that were seen in 2007, there isn't any evidence pointing us to another point source. How WNS got to Howes Cave is simply undetermined, as you state.

By the way, kudos to Matt Skeels, Pat Ormsbee, and the PBS film crew for a nicely-edited piece.

[LukeM]

Given the other four caves in the area where it was first noticed (Gage Caverns, Schoharie Caverns, Knox Cave, and Hailes Cave) in 2007 were either highly visited (all but Hailes), or regularly surveyed (Hailes by NYDEC), and no one noticed anything, much less the mass mortalities that were seen in 2007, there isn't any evidence pointing us to another point source.

I certainly understand the inclination to consider Howe the point of origin. In response to what you said above though, this begs the question, how long after a bat comes across Gd do we see actual signs of WNS? If it takes a while, who's to say that the bat in Howe that was spotted by Paul Rubin didn't contract the fungus 1 or 2 years before in a completely different location? Maybe someone was looking at that exact bat in Hailes the year before but it hadn't yet shown strong signs of the fungus it harbored, or no bothered to note a little fuzziness. Paul Rubin didn't make note of the the white muzzle when he saw the bat, right? Being that bats are such mobile creatures, can we make a good assessment? Of course, it doesn't make a huge difference in terms of conclusions but I'm willing to bet that Howe saw way more European visitors than Gage, so there is some difference.

[PYoungbaer]

Luke,

From the experiments conducted by Al Hicks and Scott Darling at two Vermont mine sites, healthy bats showed signs of WNS within months of contact with the fungus. Whether or not that's true in all cases is unknown, and I would suspect a lot depends on temperature and humidity, among other factors.

When Al Hicks showed Nancy Heaslip's now-famous photo to colleagues around the globe, no one had ever seen anything like it. Only later did Paul Rubin come forth with his photos, and a small handful of Europeans had photos with something similar from earlier years.

[LukeM]

Thanks for the info about Al Hick's and Scott Darling's experiment. I wasn't aware of those results.

[Claude Koch]

Hi Peter,
Matt Skeels, instead of Skeel.
The Pat Ormsbee segment was taped in June of 2010, before it aired last month here in Oregon, on the OPB television show Oregon Field Guide.
She acknowledges that her statements about WNS being in Oklahoma have changed since the time of that interview.
And promises to be more careful on that issue in the future.

Claude Koch
Willamette Valley Grotto
Vice Chair / Librarian
NSS West Region WNS Liaison

Luke,

I understand your point. However, it remains true that the first documentation of WNS is the series of photos taken by Paul Rubin in the Howes Cave (non-commercial) section of Howe Caverns in 2006. Given the other four caves in the area where it was first noticed (Gage Caverns, Schoharie Caverns, Knox Cave, and Hailes Cave) in 2007 were either highly visited (all but Hailes), or regularly surveyed (Hailes by NYDEC), and no one noticed anything, much less the mass mortalities that were seen in 2007, there isn't any evidence pointing us to another point source. How WNS got to Howes Cave is simply undetermined, as you state.

By the way, kudos to Matt Skeel, Pat Ormsbee, and the PBS film crew for a nicely-edited piece.

[Cheryl Jones]

I was particularly frustrated by the image of a gated cave that accompanied the statement about caves being closed on federal land. This just feeds concerns cavers have of federal agencies gating caves to permanently restrict access, and it gives cavers no credibility for cooperating with agencies on closure rules and complying without the need for gates. Caver cooperation and partnership with federal and state agencies are important messages, and critical aspects of WNS management.

Who Pat Ormsbee? It is curious that she was not given any credentials, and not even introduced.

Pat says

And we now have nine species of bats that have been affected by White Nose with virtually no resistance.

But can't we say that some appear to be showing resistance, such as the Virginia big ear and Indiana? They're not dying in anywhere near the numbers that the little browns are.

Cheryl

[cavergirl]

Who Pat Ormsbee? It is curious that she was not given any credentials, and not even introduced.

Pat says

And we now have nine species of bats that have been affected by White Nose with virtually no resistance.

But can't we say that some appear to be showing resistance, such as the Virginia big ear and Indiana? They're not dying in anywhere near the numbers that the little browns are.Cheryl

http://www.wbwg.org/aboutus/biosketches ... ident.html

[Claude Koch]

Hi Cheryl,
Ran across this 'Closing Caves for the Convenience and Power of the Government'
blog today.
It's worth reading, with the comments about the subject, along with the surprise gating of Sawyers Ice Cave comments, which is in Willamette N.F., Oregon. It pertains to this thread, because Pat Ormsbee works at Willamette N.F.

http://behindtheblack.com/behind-the-bl ... sing-caves\
-for-the-convenience-and-power-of-the-government

http://tinyurl.com/25tvzpb

Claude
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I was particularly frustrated by the image of a gated cave that accompanied the statement about caves being closed on federal land. This just feeds concerns cavers have of federal agencies gating caves to permanently restrict access, and it gives cavers no credibility for cooperating with agencies on closure rules and complying without the need for gates. Caver cooperation and partnership with federal and state agencies are important messages, and critical aspects of WNS management.

Who Pat Ormsbee? It is curious that she was not given any credentials, and not even introduced.

Pat says

And we now have nine species of bats that have been affected by White Nose with virtually no resistance.

But can't we say that some appear to be showing resistance, such as the Virginia big ear and Indiana? They're not dying in anywhere near the numbers that the little browns are.

Cheryl