USFWS Considering ES Listing for Several Bats

[Anonymous_Coward]

I don't really think that any of this matters anymore anyway, caves such as Rumbling Falls, Camps Gulf etc... will never see another caver, possibly researchers, but only with a post doctorates degree. Cavers will certainly be a thing of the pass. Without caves for the younger generations to explore, no one will want to join any non caving grotto? So there won't be any one learning about caves or cave conservation.

I don't think I could disagree more. I have a much more optimistic view of the future than you, my pessimistic friend. Cavers and bats, (yes, bats) will survive. I'd be willing to bet you good money that TN state caves will be open for caving within the next five years. Besides, there will always be open caves in TAG. There are several thousand open for caving right now.

[Pippin]

I tend be more in the pessimist camp with Brian. I do think bats will recover or maintain populations, but the restrictions we've seen to caving all over the country (and continue to see) will be very difficult to reverse, and frankly, the NSS hasn't been doing a whole lot to fight for cavers and caving. Peter has, but he's just one guy. I'm also rather disgruntled at the NSS right now even though I'm still a member. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how buying an expensive new HQ will help cavers and caving as WNS moves south and west. My favorite project cave in TAG has been closed for two years, and even if WNS kills every single bat in the cave I doubt FWS will ever reopen it (it will then be important "recovery" habitat).

[PYoungbaer]

All,

This is a thread about the ES listing. Right now, and for the next 60 days, I'd like to hear information and data on bats subject to the USFWS considerations. Pippin, are there reports on Fern's bats, population trends, etc.? That would be very helpful. SCCi? Any particular data there? NSS preserves? Other conservancies? State surveys that we've participated in and/or oversee. Please send reports, links, and/or citations. Let's let our science speak and inform objectively on the wisdom of listing or not; habitat designation, and/or recovery plans, particularly if you have been involved in them for other species.

Please review the specific information being sought and criteria for consideration in the formal finding: Go to the NSS website: http://www.caves.org/WNS, click on the top Breaking News item - formal finding link to the full pdf.

Info can be sent to wnsliaison@caves.org. Thank you.

[BrianC]

Hey! I just hope that I have made someone mad enough to do something!

[Steve Pitts]

Peter,

Our winter 2011 bat inventory revealed no evidence of WNS in the Fern Cave gray bat population, but we did see several bats with white lesions on their wings and legs, very similar to what I have seen in photos of WNS infected bats. Just no white noses. We checked a small segment of the hibernaculum, probably about 100,000 bats. We have not done population estimates recently, and to my knowledge, there are no plans to do so anytime soon.

[wyandottecaver]

good luck with that. I understand the desire to collect data. I think it's only fair to do so in an informed manner. Anything you say can and will be used against you by the USFWS, CBD, and everyone else who gets to read the public report.

I would urge anyone submitting data that ANY location you provide will ultimately be examined for Critical Habitat Designation. While we have an opportunity to fight that fight later, why give them a cave to fight over in the first place?

Fact:
both the small footed and long eared prefer roosts where they are unlikely to be easily seen (rock piles, narrow crevices, chimneys, etc) Thus, their population will always seem small cause you can't friggin find them. USFWS knows this. So does CBD, thats why CBD picked them. I have walked through a small 500ft cave containing over 200 long-eared bats and never saw 1.....until dusk when they exited.

I find it no surprise that BCI and researchers living off USFWS grants should want to pursue this line of reasoning.....There's money to be made. Do a little looking around and you will discover that you can actually pay to destroy endangered species and their habitats. Pay the USFWS...who then gives grants to researchers who then write articles for conservation groups talking about how much "help"(translate your money) these imperiled species need....

[MUD]

I'll NEVER again help any agency or bat lover with information regarding bats!

[Steve Pitts]

Two follow-up comments: our bat inventories are done at the request of the USFWS. We don't have permission to enter the cave for any other reason. We are doing this for them because we think it is the right thing to do.

Cavemud: believe me, I understand your point and I struggle with this issue a lot. You are exactly correct. When the USFWS pumps the media full of anti-caver propaganda , they do not deserve our help. If they didn't get our help, they would have no more bat science. They seem blissfully ignorant of that fact.

[PYoungbaer]

Steve,

With the decades of managing Fern and the bats, I am puzzled as to why there isn't longitudinal bat population survey data, particularly considering the greys are endangered. Am I missing something?

[Pippin]

Steve,

With the decades of managing Fern and the bats, I am puzzled as to why there isn't longitudinal bat population survey data, particularly considering the greys are endangered. Am I missing something?

None of the biologists have the caving skills to go into the cave. As far as we know, no federal or state biologists have ever been inside the cave or conducted any mist netting near the entrances. I've pleaded unsuccessfully for mist netting studies for the past three or so years. Cavers are the only people who have ever done any bat studies (and I use that term very loosely), except for one inventory trip by BCI biologists in 2001. That's actually the only inventory trip I know about that's occurred within the past 20 years (probably even 30). FWS really has no idea what they're even managing because cavers have handled everything for them for years, but we obviously never visited the bat hibernacula when the bats were there. Cavers had a biological inventory in progress when the 2009 moratorium hit, and they shut that down, even though it's now more important than ever to understand the overall cave ecology.