The White Nose Syndrome Industry

[BrianC]

The basic evidence that you might be wrong is that we don't understand how WNS kills bats, if the fungus is the exclusive cause, or really much else. How is the fungus in Oklahoma, but the syndrome is lagging way back in TN so far? We just don't have enough info to know that we can't (or shouldn't) do anything yet. I won't say that every research dollar spent by the government is used wisely. Not every "discovery" is useful or accurate. I will advocate that many of the most useful discoveries mankind has made came through researching silly things in nature. Think how we would have judged Louis Pasteur studying mold and little invisible "bugs" that could kill people. Back then all of Europe knew that disease was caused by evil spirits and the will of God. And just how could the super safe DDT we spray on our own food be killing Eagles? Who would have thought that researching vampire bat saliva would lead to the best stroke treatment ever discovered as recently as a few years ago? Lots of studies seemed silly before folks did them.

I don't have faith in our absolute understanding of the Universe to say confidently that bats are hopelessly destined to die. I am glad our government is shelling out some dollars to research this. Even if we don't find a way to stop WNS, there are many frightening fungal outbreaks right now, such as Colony Collapse in bees, and the fungus wiping out amphibians. Who knows if some super deadly fungus will afflict humans next. Just maybe, something we learn from WNS will help us tackle other problems down the road. We owe a great many technologies to ridiculous and expensive dreams followed at Government expense. I am thankful for the visionaries and dreamers who help redefine our world one small discovery at a time.

Neil

Neil, You have spoken truth in all you have stated without refute. I want, more than anything, to be able to defend doing the right thing. My dilemma is this;

Since WNS day one, our USFWS has made well known that humans have been involved in the spread of this catastrophic disease. Their intentions have been ill founded through contacts with, until the Huntsville article, every possible source of public information available. Those contacts have expressed through clear print, that humans are in the scenario. This prejudice has led to certain affiliations of our scientific community to agree with this nonfactual, and surely recently, non plausible theories, that have concluded that caves must be closed to human intrusion so the spread could be slowed and or stopped. Cavers have mostly played their game for fear of persecution from the scientific community, other peer cavers, and certainly the general public. This must stop immediately! I for one have had it with this train of thinking while we can easily see that not one single bat has been saved in the last two years by this action. Still, bats continue to travel their well established migratory routs, still spread their disease to themselves, and continue to die. The time has come! Cavers have been persecuted enough! Those groups that dislike cavers for whatever reason, will be held accountable by continuing their actions against us! The money trail will dry up unless the truth has been given credit. I know that I am not alone on this issue, and the time is at hand.

[MUD]

The basic evidence that you might be wrong is that we don't understand how WNS kills bats, if the fungus is the exclusive cause, or really much else. How is the fungus in Oklahoma, but the syndrome is lagging way back in TN so far? We just don't have enough info to know that we can't (or shouldn't) do anything yet. I won't say that every research dollar spent by the government is used wisely. Not every "discovery" is useful or accurate. I will advocate that many of the most useful discoveries mankind has made came through researching silly things in nature. Think how we would have judged Louis Pasteur studying mold and little invisible "bugs" that could kill people. Back then all of Europe knew that disease was caused by evil spirits and the will of God. And just how could the super safe DDT we spray on our own food be killing Eagles? Who would have thought that researching vampire bat saliva would lead to the best stroke treatment ever discovered as recently as a few years ago? Lots of studies seemed silly before folks did them.

I don't have faith in our absolute understanding of the Universe to say confidently that bats are hopelessly destined to die. I am glad our government is shelling out some dollars to research this. Even if we don't find a way to stop WNS, there are many frightening fungal outbreaks right now, such as Colony Collapse in bees, and the fungus wiping out amphibians. Who knows if some super deadly fungus will afflict humans next. Just maybe, something we learn from WNS will help us tackle other problems down the road. We owe a great many technologies to ridiculous and expensive dreams followed at Government expense. I am thankful for the visionaries and dreamers who help redefine our world one small discovery at a time.

Neil

Neil, You have spoken truth in all you have stated without refute. I want, more than anything, to be able to defend doing the right thing. My dilemma is this;

Since WNS day one, our USFWS has made well known that humans have been involved in the spread of this catastrophic disease. Their intentions have been ill founded through contacts with, until the Huntsville article, every possible source of public information available. Those contacts have expressed through clear print, that humans are in the scenario. This prejudice has led to certain affiliations of our scientific community to agree with this nonfactual, and surely recently, non plausible theories, that have concluded that caves must be closed to human intrusion so the spread could be slowed and or stopped. Cavers have mostly played their game for fear of persecution from the scientific community, other peer cavers, and certainly the general public. This must stop immediately! I for one have had it with this train of thinking while we can easily see that not one single bat has been saved in the last two years by this action. Still, bats continue to travel their well established migratory routs, still spread their disease to themselves, and continue to die. The time has come! Cavers have been persecuted enough! Those groups that dislike cavers for whatever reason, will be held accountable by continuing their actions against us! The money trail will dry up unless the truth has been given credit. I know that I am not alone on this issue, and the time is at hand.

Very well said Brian! I'm with ya brother!

[climbingallday]

Brian,

Few few other reasons closures are not effective (beyond bats being the primary vector for the fungus):

If spores can spread by cave gear, they can probably spread by bird and rodent as other fungal spores are documented to do. Birds can travel farther than bats and frequently use caves.

When caves are closed, we know that only a percentage of the people abide by it and many gates are breached.

The fungus may also be spread by forest bats.

Most bats are not limited to caves. The majority of species at least occasionally use bridges, barns, trees, rock crevices, etc. The fungus almost certainly is spreading outside the cave environment during swarm, night roosting, etc.

Many WNS sites are gated caves, some of which we know have been closed since early on in the epidemic.

It is nice to talk about these concepts here as when we confront folks from the USFS, BLM, etc. we will have more convincing arguments. I have been working overtime to ward off closures and WNS gating of caves out west. We have had a cave in Oregon gated for WNS already and I am fighting another potential one in Nevada right now.

Neil

[tncaver]

Deleted.This post belonged in the rant thread.

[climbingallday]

Bottom line. Government sucks. Bottom line #2, USFWS sucks twice as much as the rest of the FEDS.

Government will always be limited to being as good as the people who do the work. I work for a county and I assure you I do my job well. We are lucky enough to have some awesome Forest Service employees at our district Ranger Station here as well. We have BLM districts here which range from pretty good to totally ineffective. To be fair they have a lot more land and a lot fewer people to do the job. I can think of a BLM office I used to volunteer for who had one law enforcement ranger to cover 11 million acres. I bet that guy missed a lot, but how can one guy patrol that much area.

The "government" plays many important and needed functions in society. It is really too big for anyone to fully understand every part or for every action taken to run smoothly. For all the problems, the government does a heck of a lot of good too. Remember that police, fire, and roads are pretty much government exclusive programs. They may not be perfect, but most departments do a really good job. Think of people you know who work for some government agency and consider how much they "suck" at doing their job. I bet you most of them are good people who work hard and have good intentions. I take pride in the job I do for my local county, as does nearly every government employee I know.

As the government reacts to WNS, remember that most people are just doing their job as best they can. They may not agree with what you think, but it does not mean they suck. There are many awesome cavers who work for the governement making tough decisions right now. Some of my best friends work for the BLM, USFS, and NPS. Many earn way less than they could elsewhere because protecting and studying caves is their passion. I might just follow their lead once I retire, but for now I can't afford to take the pay cut to a GS-5/7 job subjet to furlough whenever funding gets low. I can assure you the governement cave positions are not making anybody rich.

[tncaver]

Just for the record, my statement was aimed at the FEDs as opposed to state and local governments. That excludes the firemen, police, etc.

[BrianC]

Government will always be limited to being as good as the people who do the work. Some of my best friends work for the BLM, USFS, and NPS.

Curiously, how do your friends feel about closing caves due to the facts and present knowledge of White Nose Syndrome? 40 something years ago, after sending 25cents-$1.00 in with my campbells soup can label to save the American Bald Eagle, I considered a career as a forest ranger. How life changes. I have always been an avid outdoors man spending any available time enjoying this.

[atxcaver]

Regarding WNS issues, I'm not concerned about who's making how much off of all this, it's bad policy that concerns me. Closing certain caves to protect significant bat populations I can understand, and I support that. But to do "blanket closures" for all caves in an entire region to me is just silly, and falls under what I call "Lazy Policy".

If the government isn't willing to visit every cave in the region of concern and look for WNS or bat populations that are vulnerable to it, then they have no business closing every cave on that region, ESPECIALLY if it's on so-called "public lands".

I've read somewhere about government wanting to have authority to go onto private land and have control over caves there, too, which to me is just disturbing. I can see all those land-owners who are scared of government involvement sealing off caves on their own out of fear; NOT a good situation.

Closure status should be managed on a cave-by-cave basis, since each cave is unique. As I have said before, if the government isn't willing to take the time and money to visit every cave in a region of concern to paint a detailed picture, then they have no business opening their mouths about whether everything is either open or closed. This is why we have preserves, and private land owners, and parks, etc., so managing this vast number of caves is easier to do.

Every time the government gets involved with something it's like watching someone trying to do brain surgery with a sledge-hammer.

[BrianC]

Every time the government gets involved with something it's like watching someone trying to do brain surgery with a sledge-hammer.

Hey that is a very expensive one tool fits all, you are talking about!

[climbingallday]

Government will always be limited to being as good as the people who do the work. Some of my best friends work for the BLM, USFS, and NPS.

Curiously, how do your friends feel about closing caves due to the facts and present knowledge of White Nose Syndrome? 40 something years ago, after sending 25cents-$1.00 in with my campbells soup can label to save the American Bald Eagle, I considered a career as a forest ranger. How life changes. I have always been an avid outdoors man spending any available time enjoying this.

I would say there are very mixed feelings. There is genuine concern for the bats and the real potential that people could spread it more quickly to the west coast than it would spread naturally. Most of my friends working for the land agencies oppose blanket closures and are doing what they can to bring sense to this. They are good people doing their jobs and trying to be reasonable in a bad situation.

Are you so disconnected with your local land agencies that you don't cave with their bat biologists and cave leads? I am on a first name basis with most of the federal bat biologist in Oregon. Maybe the feds in your area would trust cavers more if they knew you and partnered with your grottos. I find it hard to believe that any experienced caver would have no friends working as a bat biologist. Is the eastern US so different than the west? I know a few cavers back east and I know most of them work cooperatively with the feds.

[BrianC]

Are you so disconnected with your local land agencies that you don't cave with their bat biologists and cave leads? I am on a first name basis with most of the federal bat biologist in Oregon. Maybe the feds in your area would trust cavers more if they knew you and partnered with your grottos. I find it hard to believe that any experienced caver would have no friends working as a bat biologist. Is the eastern US so different than the west? I know a few cavers back east and I know most of them work cooperatively with the feds.

That is the problem, the cavers are afraid to gripe to much for fear of loosing those relationships, and making the situation much worse. Remember, the caving on public lands is the real issue at this time (could go private soon with ESA) The control of public lands has fallen under the federal guidelines for this region.If we upset their tender moments, we loose! I think we will loose either way at this point unless something is done very very soon! I see no hope that any understanding can be accomplished between caving and the federal government at this point. You will see similar reaction as the progression spreads, both WNS, and thinking from those controlling your lands. This is absolutely a no win for bats or cavers, unless we get ridged with our proper thinking and facts that provide the truthful evidence that we can not stop , and we don't hasten the spread. Only logical!

[BrianC]

Once the crux of the situation faces you and the knees start shaking, you will see the same reactions!

[JesusCaverOlson]

Regarding WNS issues, I'm not concerned about who's making how much off of all this, it's bad policy that concerns me. Closing certain caves to protect significant bat populations I can understand, and I support that. But to do "blanket closures" for all caves in an entire region to me is just silly, and falls under what I call "Lazy Policy".

If the government isn't willing to visit every cave in the region of concern and look for WNS or bat populations that are vulnerable to it, then they have no business closing every cave on that region, ESPECIALLY if it's on so-called "public lands".

I've read somewhere about government wanting to have authority to go onto private land and have control over caves there, too, which to me is just disturbing. I can see all those land-owners who are scared of government involvement sealing off caves on their own out of fear; NOT a good situation.

Closure status should be managed on a cave-by-cave basis, since each cave is unique. As I have said before, if the government isn't willing to take the time and money to visit every cave in a region of concern to paint a detailed picture, then they have no business opening their mouths about whether everything is either open or closed. This is why we have preserves, and private land owners, and parks, etc., so managing this vast number of caves is easier to do.

Every time the government gets involved with something it's like watching someone trying to do brain surgery with a sledge-hammer.

I believe there might also people out there who are involved, who have power, who love to cave, who have their OWN agenda, who are all about SELF. There also might be people out there who would love to gate every cave that they love to go to, to keep everyone else out so they can be the only one with access and they would even ask people to support their SELF project of gating caves. There might even be people who are part of WNS project for this specific reason to promote the idea of gating caves. JUST a THEORY! Wherever there is something good, fun, and pure there is always people out there with their own SELF AGENDA trying to destroy it for everyone else. I know there are people who are genuinely concerned and involved for the right reasons , and I thank God for genuine and true people, but its like saying everyone involved in government or any other organization has pure motives. There are always people with wrong motives and we must always keep a look out and defend the truth and integrity of others who put their blood, sweet, and tears into something they are passionate about and believe in.

[BrianC]

I believe there might also people out there who are involved, who have power, who love to cave, who have their OWN agenda, who are all about SELF. There also might be people out there who would love to gate every cave that they love to go to, to keep everyone else out so they can be the only one with access and they would even ask people to support their SELF project of gating caves. There might even be people who are part of WNS project for this specific reason to promote the idea of gating caves. JUST a THEORY! Wherever there is something good, fun, and pure there is always people out there with their own SELF AGENDA trying to destroy it for everyone else. I know there are people who are genuinely concerned and involved for the right reasons , and I thank God for genuine and true people, but its like saying everyone involved in government or any other organization has pure motives. There are always people with wrong motives and we must always keep a look out and defend the truth and integrity of others who put their blood, sweet, and tears into something they are passionate about and believe in.

Well spoke Courtney. Though some of these people may have good intentions and ethics, they also have an alliance with their federal boss, who makes the policy. They don't want to become a liability to their allegiance. In government, there is no honer among thieves.

[commanderzoom]

I've read somewhere about government wanting to have authority to go onto private land and have control over caves there, too, which to me is just disturbing. I can see all those land-owners who are scared of government involvement sealing off caves on their own out of fear; NOT a good situation.

My reaction would be sort of opposite of that & would stand a good chance of landing me in prison or at least on supervised probation with multiple felony charges on my record. When it comes to some things I won't go down without putting up a hell of a fight.

FTR, I'm not anti-government just anti-government waltzing onto private property & thinking they have the God given right to take over anything they please for no concrete reason.