Cavechat.org

Anonymous_Coward wrote:what does it take to have confirmed WNS as opposed to confirmed G.d.?

Anonymous_Coward wrote:Could you provide some clarification here? Is Indiana confirmed WNS or confirmed G.d.? It also might be helpful if you reiterate the definitions of both.
When I read the announcement, I see that bats from Endless cave had fungus on them. This fungus was tested and confirmed to be G.d. Is this not WNS? If not, what does it take to have confirmed WNS as opposed to confirmed G.d.?

David Grimes wrote:Technically they cannot "make" landowners close access to their caves but the fear is that they will use they Endangered Species Act in a way similar to the whole issue with the Center for Biological Diversity, in which they essentially scare the landowner into closing access to the caves. By throwing around legal terms and threatening legal action which in the CBD case involved issuing fines for failure to abide by FWS requirements, it would be fairly easy to get landowners to start bulldozing caves or restricting access. A big fear now days is the risk that the landowner may lose the ability to use their own land or even have their land seized under the "Critical Habitat" section of the law. In reality a landowner probably would face no real repercussion for not closing their caves but you could see how it would be easy enough to scare them into it, just read the entire Endangered Species Act, I know many people who would never report having any endangered species on their property it is simply not worth the risk of losing the use of your own land.

PYoungbaer wrote:

Sungura wrote:I guess I"m missing where they can make landowners close private caves. I agree with everything you wrote though. It sucks, no other way to say it.

Just look at what Wisconsin did: named four bat species as state threatened, and named Geomyces destructans as a prohibited invasive species. Private cave owners and cavers have run up legal bills in the five figure range to fight the rules. By the way, these rules are currently being challenged by state legislators, with prompting from the landowners.

Hi All,

Unfortunately the state of Indiana announced the detection of WNS in a Washington Co., cave yesterday. I’ve classed it as “suspect” since it appears no histo results are back yet. There will likely be more reports from Indiana.
I’ve changed the “Likely” category to “Suspect” to match with the NWHC case definition categories recently announced:

Suspect WNS:
To identify a bat as suspect for WNS, one of the following must be true:

• Field signs are suggestive of WNS ANDWNS was previously confirmed in the county or in an adjacent county. Further diagnostics (PCR, culture, fungal tape and histopathology) were either not performed or are negative.

• A bat is PCR positive meaning that DNA from G. destructans is present although the viability of the organism is unknown. Field signs are not required. No histopathology was performed or is negative.

• A bat is culture positive meaning there is viable G. destructans present. Field signs are not required. No histopathology was performed or is negative.

• Fungal tape strip of bat fur or skin is positive for G. destructans-like conidia. Visible fungus is required. No histopathology was performed or is negative.

Confirmed positive for WNS:

• Confirmed positive bats are those that fulfill histopathologic criteria for the disease. These criteria require the identification of a specific pattern of fungal colonization in the epidermis which may extend to invasion of the dermis and connective tissue. Histopathology can also support the presence/identity of G. destructans if distinctive conidia are observed. Field signs, PCR, fungal tape strip, and culture can be negative for bats that fulfill the histopathologic criteria for confirmed WNS. Follow-up PCR/DNA sequencing or fungal culture should be considered to confirm the identity of the organism in geographic regions with no prior or unknown history of WNS.

I regretfully welcome Indiana to the riddled and rattled WNS raft.

Cal Butchkoski
Wildlife Diversity Biologist
PA Game commission

tncaver wrote:I'm sure that all the cavers who attended the meeting will probably be happy to oblige Cory Holiday and the USFWS with new bat
information, however it will likely come back to bite them in the ass. And everyone else too.

Pippin wrote:

tncaver wrote:I'm sure that all the cavers who attended the meeting will probably be happy to oblige Cory Holiday and the USFWS with new bat
information, however it will likely come back to bite them in the ass. And everyone else too.

I wouldn't count on that. I was at the meeting to simply start some kind of dialog with biologists working in Tennessee. I sure won't give anyone information about privately owned caves with bats until state and federal officials move away from total cave closures and start treating cavers as partners. And I suspect that will be a long time coming. Pretty much everyone I know feels the same. I do wonder what is going to happen in the coming months as WNS starts to hammer our area. It's very, very sad for the bats and I fear it will lead to even more hysterical restrictions from government agencies towards cavers.

caveflower wrote:It is a sad day indeed. With all the efforts of local cavers deconing their cave gear and closing bat caves. It still came here. We knew it would but we held out hope. I do a lot of caveowner relations here in Indiana and have also seen it take a toll on caver friendly owners. With cavers only having caves on privite lands they are getting overwelmed. Not all but some. For some that have been kinda on the fence about closing their caves. This might just put them over the top. I have even talked to one owner that just wants to bulldoze hers shut. It's has no bats at all but for fear of getting in trouble by the feds she doesn't want the hassle. I am lost at what to tell these on the fence caveowners. I don't know how to calm their fears.

BrianC wrote:Brenda, I wish that cavers could say that the NSS (the largest scientific caving community) would help calm their fears by actions providing information that correlates the spread of WNS by humans as irrational and unjust, but unfortunately, chicken little (the sky is falling) talk by the feds hasn't been counter responded by them. Hopefully, private land owners have some insight to see this fear is nonfactual,(totally theoretical), and will be met with vigilance from true conservation groups in the future. Unfortunately as well, many of the conservation groups have been allied with the feds, and therefore mingle under the sheets with them.

caveflower wrote:It is a sad day indeed. With all the efforts of local cavers deconing their cave gear and closing bat caves. It still came here. We knew it would but we held out hope. I do a lot of caveowner relations here in Indiana and have also seen it take a toll on caver friendly owners. With cavers only having caves on privite lands they are getting overwelmed. Not all but some. For some that have been kinda on the fence about closing their caves. This might just put them over the top. I have even talked to one owner that just wants to bulldoze hers shut. It's has no bats at all but for fear of getting in trouble by the feds she doesn't want the hassle. I am lost at what to tell these on the fence caveowners. I don't know how to calm their fears.