WNS TN Caver Input...better late than never?

[TNCave]

Hello all,

At our TN Cave and Karst Working Group meeting last Saturday we ended the day with a lot of discussion about WNS. For the most part it went pretty well, but we were really hit over the head with developing ways to include cavers and for cavers to help with WNS issues in TN. The informal group of folks working on WNS in TN would like to improve our cooperation and coordination with cavers and are open to ideas. I would like to use this forum to identify shared goals of cavers and potential methods of achieving those goals.

A lot of this discussion was driven by John Hoffelt (John I hope you are on here) and one idea he had was to appoint a liaison to begin attending our meetings. His suggestion was Chrys Hulbert(Chrys I hope you are on here too), whom I'm sure many of you know. As a group, I don't think we'll be opposed to this, but just want to make sure that is the best way to meet the needs of the caving community. I would like to be strategic about this and put an effort into defining specific goals and methods to achieve those goals.

I would welcome any ideas or suggestions.

Cory Holliday

[BrianC]

http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11166&start=0&hilit=cave+karst+tennessee This is where this thread started.

[wyandottecaver]

Cory,

I'm not in TN but I will relate some experiance from IN. We had a small 3-4 person group "representing" cavers with the State. One thing I observed is that given the tight circles in the caving community its easy to exclude people just by virtue of so many small insular groups. The next thing is that an effort was made up front to get input, but information flow during the process itself didnt seem to work as well. (at least some of this was due to lack of action by the State)

I might suggest that regardless of what representative method is used, the CKWG be very pro-active about providing frequent status updates (even minor ones) via email/web and provide multiple avenues for comment, like a liason and a independent email address for comments.

This way, everybody who wants to know can find out and they have a way to be heard even if they are "outside the circle".

Finally, while I understand people wanting to get involved, short of entrance observations and maybe educational activities I cant help but think the opprtunities for active work would be limited. However, inviting folks to mist-net sessions or other field activities as observers might be a way for folks to be connected to the work even if their active involvement is limited.

[Pippin]

I attended the meeting and really enjoyed all of the presentations. I thought it was a really interesting mix of information! I also thought the WNS debate was useful, even though I'm sure the biologists felt like cavers were doing lots of complaining. My opinion is that cavers know an awful lot about cave resources and should be more closely integrated into groups that are discussing WNS and management issues. It's easy to read some of the posts here on CaveChat and think cavers are a bunch of lunatics (sorry all, but it's true!), but there are lots of cavers who are extremely knowledgeable about bats and cave science generally. The fact that we have not been included at either the state or FWS level in Tennessee up til now has really irritated a lot of people, and it will be difficult to overcome that. I think a caver liaison is a good idea, but just having one person involved in discussions won't be sufficient. I would open meetings and mail distribution lists up to several cavers who have experience in biology or cave management, especially people who are good at communicating what is going on to other cavers, especially via widely read forums like TagNet. I would also recommend posting more current info on the TBWG web page, such as the presentations from the fall meeting. Lots of cavers I know wanted to attend that meeting but couldn't because of work schedules. Posting presentations and a general meeting summary would help people know what's going on. Also, like Wyandottecave said, post updates regularly somewhere. This is actually an area where a caver could help out. If you can find a caver who likes working with web pages, they could help you update and maintain information like that. I also suggest brainstorming simple ways cavers can help. For example, publicize who to contact if someone sees something suspicious (I attended the meeting, but still am not clear on exactly who I should contact if I see a white fuzzy bat this winter). Put something on the TBWG web page about what exactly people should look for this winter, exactly what people should do if they see a suspicious bat or bats flying around (send pictures? send a location? what exactly do you want?). Keep us updated as you finish winter surveys. Don't just tell us when you find WNS--also tell us when you don't. Do you need help with entrance monitoring that wouldn't involved going into caves? Cavers would likely help with that. Those are just a few thoughts.

I also think people would like to have an opportunity to provide input on the state plan before it's finalized each year. For example, I personally think it's silly that some state caves like Buggytop are closed for WNS when there is clearly not a bat colony there (sure, there are pips just like most caves), but everyone knows that hikers and unorganized cavers constantly go into that cave. Closing it simply means people who are actually cleaning and deconning gear aren't going there! I didn't see the 2011 plan until it was final, and I would have liked to have had the opportunity to review it and provide comments. I definitely would have suggested integrating caver help into monitoring this winter. Just let us know what is going on in TN and don't dismiss our comments and input. Most of us are not professional biologists, but lots of us have spent the better parts of our lives studying caves as amateurs and we could contribute an enormous amount if given the chance. Every caver I know loves bats and we want to protect them. Many cavers I know have been bat conservationists longer than most biologists! The key to this will be working with us as real partners, not just inviting us to meetings to be nice and then not really listening to our input.

Thanks for posting this thread to get some ideas out there!

[PYoungbaer]

Bravo! Extremely well-said. Thank you for the meeting update and excellent suggestions.

[Batgirl]

I attended the meeting as well and thought it was great! I really enjoyed the presentations and I thank you Cory for putting this together. I was proud to see that you recognize the scientific contributions that cavers make to the study of caves and its contents. I am looking forward to attending these meetings in the future.

I agree with everything Pippin said and would also like to see a regional committee set up that includes professionals, cavers and scientists from all three states: Tennessee, Alabama and Georgia. WNS does not have boundaries and neither should any plan designed to manage it. Currently the TN plan is only a monitoring and surveillance plan, but it doesn't address any short or long term goals nor does it provide any way to measure current and future needs or successes. I believe that if you had an open public meeting to discuss elements of the plan and how we can all contribute to its success, you would get more cooperation from cavers. There was also mention that it may be possible to reopen some of the caves for scientific study, such as mapping and inventory assessments. While it may not occur until WNS has wreaked its havoc in the region, this is a good step in the right direction and I thank you for your willingness to meet us half way.

[PYoungbaer]

John Hoffelt sent me the following, which he gave me permission to post:

1. Chrys Hulbert is the Regional WNS liaison with Dave Pelren. This may be a unique position requested by Dave at the meeting. What and how this relationship will work is perhaps undefined at this time. Much like Peter's NSS position probably started with USFWS, and I anticipate a similar relationship to develop between Dave and Chrys. That was Action Item 1 from the meeting; status: completed. (Peter's note: the NSS WNS Liaison position is not limited to USFWS, but is intended to be with all agency and academic researchers and managers working on WNS)

2. Action Item 2 from the meeting is the issue of caver involvement in the Tennessee WNS Response. Currently, selected cavers are helping with specific monitoring projects. However, there is no broad, overall plan for data collection by cavers. Agency and monitoring personnel at the TN meeting stated that caver help would be welcomed to identify non-threatened or endangered bat habitats. (These are also unresolved issues for the NSS at the national level left over from the August meeting.) Certainly, cavers can make observations, but cavers do not need to be in a (bat) collection role. A related issue is caver involvement in the TN Bat Working Group. However, there was no resolution to how caver data collection and observations can be input to the surveillance database (same as the national-level question). What I think should be a fairly easy relationship and plan to establish, apparently is not easy at all. Possibly because of organizational and individual trust and personalities issues. Status: Undefined and Unresolved (see Comment 3).

3. It may be important to clarify that TN does not have a response plan; at present, we have a monitoring and surveillance plan. This is a critical item to recognize; I heard significant comments about the TN plan relative to response, but it is not a response plan. I asked the group about work on a response plan, but no one knew of any work on such a document. I suspect that the response plan should be a cooperative effort initiated by TN Dept. of Agriculture and TN Dept. of Environment and Conservation (they have legal jurisdiction). It would benefit the response for agency personnel to recognize and include stakeholder and community involvement in developing and implementing a response plan, but I am unaware of any such efforts at the TN state-level at this time. I think this is evolving at the national level, and perhaps this will positively affect the TN efforts.

Just some thoughts. jh

[Pippin]

I don't know why it would be difficult to get cavers to help with surveillance. In Alabama, cavers have been helping with surveillance and monitoring the past two winters. Our state biologist identified a list of caves he needed help with and solicited help from local Grottos. Many of us know how to identify grays/Indianas, and obviously know the symptoms of WNS, so cavers checked out quite a few caves last winter. We're gearing up for this season right now. I got an email from a FWS representative yesterday asking local cavers to go look at two caves with historic populations of grays, but nobody knows if grays are still there. We're going to go look for bats, take pictures of any we see, and look for signs of WNS and guano in the caves. Other federal and state employees have cavers helping them with other monitoring projects. As far as capturing data, our state wildlife biologist prepared a form with information he wants us to gather. Last year we filled out the form and emailed it to him, along with pictures of bats we saw, after we completed each cave trip and he entered the information into his database. It was easy. I'm not sure what the problem would be doing something similar in TN. Right now, there are forms on the Alabama Bat Working Group web page that cavers or the general public can fill out if they see something suspicious in either a cave, in a city, or out on a hike. http://alabamabatwg.wordpress.com/report-a-bat/ This is a simplified version of the forms we use for official inventory trips. We've also published this information on our local remailers and also told our state Sierra clubs, various outdoor groups, and also scouting groups in case they see any suspicious bats over the next few months. And FYI, the email address listed on the web page for reporting suspicious bats goes directly to me, a caver. I will gather any missing information and forward any credible reports on to our very overworked state non-game wildlife biologist.

[TNCave]

I think that in TN, we have missed many opportunities with our bat working group. Jennifer turned me on to the AL Bat Working Group website, and it is fantastic and clearly designed to intermediate info between cavers, biologists, land managers, etc. We were very pleased to have some cavers at the TN Bat Working Group meeting in November, we had about five or six and that was a new record. We even have a caver on the board now. I think expanding the role of the TN Bat Working Group may help us reach many of the goals we are talking about.

Pippin, it sounds like you have great cooperation down there. Did the requests come to your grotto then get distributed from there? In all honesty, one hot topic here has been decon procedures. Did the requests come with any sort of suggestion that you follow the FWS decon procedures? I really don't have a good sense for how many folks are following the decon guidelines, but that has been a factor with volunteer cave surveys in TN.

There is a lot of information in the TN surveillance plan, like who to call if you see signs of WNS in TN, but it's not a management plan and it's not intended to be. I think both MO and AL have pretty good management plans and that should definitely be a goal for TN this year. There are similar conversations going on amongst the TN WNS group and I'll do my best to keep TN cavers informed, until we can form some better methods of communication. That brings me to my next question, is posting information on here sufficient for now?

We're entering a pretty hectic field season right now, so I hope folks will be patient, but we should have some good action steps ready to go by early spring. I hope we can keep these conversations going and please don't hesitate to contact me or anyone from the TN surveillance plan with your suggestions.

Cory

[wyandottecaver]

If your USFWS region is anything like ours pippin you better pray those historical gray populations are still historical......Shelta cave is likely to become a cautionary tale....

Also, While doing an ID between a Gray and IN Bat wouldn't be hard for a trained observer, the ID between IN Bats and Little Browns is another matter entirely short of handling or toe hair level eyballing. I know people who say hanging posture and the so called "mask" are characteristic. I'm not sure I really agree, but Ive found that when you get 6 experts and 6 "maybe" bats you get about 12 answers I think some bats can be sight distinguished between IN and LBB, but most are going to require a VERY close examination for a truly good ID IMHO.

[BrianC]

If your USFWS region is anything like ours pippin you better pray those historical gray populations are still historical......Shelta cave is likely to become a cautionary tale....

Also, While doing an ID between a Gray and IN Bat wouldn't be hard for a trained observer, the ID between IN Bats and Little Browns is another matter entirely short of handling or toe hair level eyballing. I know people who say hanging posture and the so called "mask" are characteristic. I'm not sure I really agree, but Ive found that when you get 6 experts and 6 "maybe" bats you get about 12 answers I think some bats can be sight distinguished between IN and LBB, but most are going to require a VERY close examination for a truly good ID IMHO.

I noticed that the worries here in Tennessee have been concentrated only on the species of bat that they know a lot about (their kids I guess). But I don't see concern for all bats at the forefront of their research towards WNS issues. This is troubling! Some one please set me straight!

[Pippin]

Cory: yes, the ABWG biologists have some rules for helping with surveys. Decon is obviously required. Wyandotte, the caves we've been asked to check out are almost certainly not home to any endangered species. They're fairly popular sport caves, I've been to most of them and don't recall ever seeing any clustering bats. And even though the ABWG is working pretty well with cavers, I am personally still very annoyed with quite a number of things FWS is doing and it's actually been fairly difficult for me to get fired up this year to volunteer. My future volunteering will hinge on what happens this summer with revising the dumb caving moratorium request, what happens with blanket cave closure policy, etc.

[cavergirl]

I noticed that the worries here in Tennessee have been concentrated only on the species of bat that they know a lot about (their kids I guess). But I don't see concern for all bats at the forefront of their research towards WNS issues. This is troubling! Some one please set me straight!

The primary reason for this is that the only money TWRA gets for studying bats is for endangered species which here in TN is Indianas and Grays. This was brought up at the original TNCKWG meeting in the summer, and again at the public meeting last weekend.
They really have very little info about hibernacula for little browns, pips, etc. Cory told us that this year, for the first time, they will band all bats caught in traps in the summer. Previously only listed bats were banded.
And when cavers asked at the meeting “how can we help? “, Cory and others repeated that the biggest help would be for cavers to tell the biologists where the caves are that harbor large populations of “other” ie, non-listed bats. I have posted this in this forum before (and taken some flak for it). But the biologists stressed, that in fact, they have been relying on cavers for quite some time (before WNS?) for info on hibernacula, and to guide them into those caves because they are not cavers. Most of their bat studies are done after bats emerge- trapping, banding and acoustical studies.


I may as well take this opportunity to introduce myself. I am Chrys Hulbert and I am the person that was suggested as a Liaison between cavers and Dave Pelren (USFWS, TN) (and perhaps the TN WNS researchers.) I have already been doing this unofficially for a few years. In 2009 when the wave of WNS started moving south, I gave a WNS PowerPoint presentation at the SERA Winter Business Meeting. A month later I gave an updated version to the TCS spring meeting and later to my own grotto. That summer Nashville hosted the SERA cave carnival. I put together a WNS information booth and brought in William Gates from USFWS from Alabama. He spent the weekend helping me man the booth and he talked with cavers about WNS and listened to cavers’ concerns. He also took opportunities to socialize and get to know us as people. I also helped in putting together the decon booth at SERA that year, which has been the model used at subsequent SERAs and TAG Fall Cave Ins. I have continued to give updates to caving groups since then, as well as to our local Sierra club chapter. And I have done several fund raisers for the WNS Rapid Response Fund at SERA and the ICS.

I have been a caver for 18 years. I am also a biologist- but not a bat biologist. My field is immunology and I first became interested in WNS from a disease perspective. Then they started closing caves, and I have been advocating for targeted instead of blanket closures ever since. I joined the TN Bat Working Group 2 years ago, have attended the last 2 meetings and met some of the agency folks and those working on WNS on several occasions. I hope I can be a bridge between the cavers and the WNS researchers and policy makers.

Chrys Hulbert, Nashville Grotto, NSS 45071

[BrianC]

I noticed that the worries here in Tennessee have been concentrated only on the species of bat that they know a lot about (their kids I guess). But I don't see concern for all bats at the forefront of their research towards WNS issues. This is troubling! Some one please set me straight!

The primary reason for this is that the only money TWRA gets for studying bats is for endangered species which here in TN is Indianas and Grays. This was brought up at the original TNCKWG meeting in the summer, and again at the public meeting last weekend.
They really have very little info about hibernacula for little browns, pips, etc. Cory told us that this year, for the first time, they will band all bats caught in traps in the summer. Previously only listed bats were banded.

Thanks for clearing that up, and thanks for the introduction. You certainly seem to understand the reason cavers are so upset with cave closures.

[tncaver]

"The primary reason for this is that the only money TWRA gets for studying bats is for endangered species which here in TN is Indianas and Grays. This was brought up at the original TNCKWG meeting in the summer, and again at the public meeting last weekend.
They really have very little info about hibernacula for little browns, pips, etc. Cory told us that this year, for the first time, they will band all bats caught in traps in the summer. Previously only listed bats were banded.
And when cavers asked at the meeting “how can we help? “, Cory and others repeated that the biggest help would be for cavers to tell the biologists where the caves are that harbor large populations of “other” ie, non-listed bats."

I think cavergirl sums it up pretty well. $$$ and cave locations of non endangered bat species is what they are after. Now you might say, if they get no money to study non endangered species, then what do they care to know where they are?

The likely reasons:
#1. the CBD wants ALL bats declared endangered.
#2. once they are declared endangered, then the TWRA will get money $$$ to fund their plans and they will already know where those bats
are, which will make it easier to close even more caves.
#3. It will also make it easier to convince or force private landowners to CLOSE PRIVATE OWNED CAVES once those bats are declared endangered.

In another thread wyandottecaver warned about agencies promising this and that. And he also mentioned that these agencies usually allow only their "special
hand picked friends" to go into closed caves. If everyone goes back and reads the hundreds of posts on here about the CBD and what other government agencies
have been doing, you will understand the truth in this.